Need Help On Rule

[cal9323]

Well, like I said ... I guess when a ball gets past me, I will just slide and "accidentally" kick the ball under the fence.

I am not an official ... that is why I am asking.

Seems to me, that you should get 1 extra base from last touched bag when the ball was obstructed with. Seems like an odd ruling.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Originally Posted by cal9323

Well, like I said ... I guess when a ball gets past me, I will just slide and "accidentally" kick the ball under the fence.

I am not an official ... that is why I am asking.

Seems to me, that you should get 1 extra base from last touched bag when the ball was obstructed with. Seems like an odd ruling.

Did the defender intentionally kick the ball under the fence in your judgment? Or, was he attempting to field the ball and muffed it and the ball hit him and went under the fence?

In your honest opinion which way did you see this play happen?

[cal9323]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

Did the defender intentionally kick the ball under the fence in your judgment? Or, was he attempting to field the ball and muffed it and the ball hit him and went under the fence?

In your honest opinion which way did you see this play happen?

In all honesty ... it was a close call. Just not sure why he would slide to get the ball in the first place. That is what made it look odd.

Like I said, runner was rounding third at the time. The runner scored when his hands when up (for the ground rule double).

Just seemed shady to me.

[cal9323]

I can tell you 100% that if he did not touch the ball there is NO WAY that ball would have gone under the fence.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Originally Posted by cal9323

I can tell you 100% that if he did not touch the ball there is NO WAY that ball would have gone under the fence.

Let me give you scenario:

Bases loaded with two outs. A right handed batter hits a smash down the first base line. The fair batted ball bounces up and hits the first baseman on the shoulder and bounces over the dugout. Regardless of the fact that the ball hit the defender or the defender touched the ball this is a ground rule double.

Anytime a fair batted ball goes in to dead ball territory under its own momentum and as long as the act was not intentional you have a ground rule double. The exception to this would be if a fair batted fly ball goes off of a defender glove and over the home run fence fair you would have a four base error which would not count against the home run count.

From the way I read the OP this is pretty much the same play I described at the top of this post.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

Let me give you scenario:

Bases loaded with two outs. A right handed batter hits a smash down the first base line. The fair batted ball bounces up and hits the first baseman on the shoulder and bounces over the dugout. Regardless of the fact that the ball hit the defender or the defender touched the ball this is a ground rule double.

This is a different scenario than the one in the OP. Here, the ball deflects off a fielder. This is clearly covered by 8-5I(2). In essence, the ball's momentum is what caused it to go out of play. The fielder just happened to redirect that momentum.

That's not what happened in the OP play. There, the ball's momentum would not have caused it to go into DBT. It was the fielder's action that provided it the impetus to leave the field. You can't use 8-5I(2) here.

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

Anytime a fair batted ball goes in to dead ball territory under its own momentum...

Again, that's not what happened in the OP. So you can't rule it a straight-up ground rule double or, more appropriately said, a two-base award from time-of-pitch.

If we can't use 8-5I(2), which rule do we use? The problem is, there is no specific rule that covers this. That's why ASA came out with the rule clarification that Irishmafia provided. And they cited 8-5G as the rule that most closely applies to this situation. Since 8-5G only applies to thrown balls, the clarification specifically tells us that a ball unintentionally kicked into DBT is treated the same as a throw.

So, the correct ruling for the OP is to award all runners two bases from when the fielder unintentionally kicked the ball under the fence.

Yeah, it kinda makes 8-5K moot. But on a thrown ball into DBT, the ruling is the same whether it is intentional or not. The real reason behind 8-5K is to provide a more severe penalty for situations where a one-base award would apply if done unintentionally, such as when a fielder catches a fly ball near a DBT boundary and then goes beyond that boundary, or when a catcher chases down an errant pitch and then sends it into the dugout.

But when it comes to batted balls, 8-5G is the best rule, per the ASA clarification, to use should a fielder provide the momentum to send the ball into DBT when the ball's momentum wouldn't have caused it to go out.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by cal9323

I can tell you 100% that if he did not touch the ball there is NO WAY that ball would have gone under the fence.

That is irrelevant to the rule. What matters is (1) did he have possession or was he still playing a batted ball, and (2) did he do this intentionally or not.

If the ball's status was still a batted ball, and if the umpire ruled this was unintentional, then the award for this is a 'book-rule double' (not a ground-rule double).

Sometimes, it may seem that the rules burn one team or the other. In this case, you think the offense got robbed of additional bases. There are other scenarios where the defense will think the offense got more bases than they deserved. But the ruling is the same.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Originally Posted by celebur

'book-rule double' (not a ground-rule double).

Please see Rules Supplement...#26 I believe...its "Ground Rule Double"

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by cal9323

In all honesty ... it was a close call. Just not sure why he would slide to get the ball in the first place. That is what made it look odd.

Like I said, runner was rounding third at the time. The runner scored when his hands when up (for the ground rule double).

Just seemed shady to me.

Sigh....

You came here asking for a ruling on a play. Deputy is trying very hard to get you to answer the KEY question that needs to be answered to give you the right answer. Let me ask you this... If your runner hit a grounder, and ended up in an extremely close play at first, and you asked the umpire if your guy was safe or out, and he said, "In all honestly, it was a close call" - would you consider that an answer?

I know ... you're not an umpire ... but an umpire MUST know the answer to the question you're being asked in order to rule properly. You were there. We were not. So you must provide the answer. Or we cannot answer with the proper ruling.

"I can tell you 100% that if he did not touch the ball there is NO WAY that ball would have gone under the fence. " Please understand - this is ENTIRELY irrelevant to the situation at hand. Complain about what the rule is to someone else - we don't have the latitude to insert our personal choice of fairness on every situation ... we have the rulebook - and there is a rule to cover your situation. Fair or not - it is what the organization who created the rules you play under has decided will be fair in the majority of cases. There are a good number of rules that, when used in an extreme minority of situations, will seem "unfair" - but without them, we have anarchy.

[cal9323]

Okay. Like I said, I will just accidentally kick the ball under the fence when it gets past me and let the official decide if it was "intentional" or not. Worth a shot according to the "rule".

Thanks for letting me know the rule. I do appreciate the help. Just sad that play was the last play in the championship game. We went back and next person popped out to end game.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Originally Posted by cal9323

Okay. Like I said, I will just accidentally kick the ball under the fence when it gets past me and let the official decide if it was "intentional" or not. Worth a shot according to the "rule".

Thanks for letting me know the rule. I do appreciate the help. Just sad that play was the last play in the championship game. We went back and next person popped out to end game.

Sometimes it's difficult to get children to understand.

[cal9323]

I said I understand the rule. Just don't agree with it.

Thanks

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by cal9323

Okay. Like I said, I will just accidentally kick the ball under the fence when it gets past me and let the official decide if it was "intentional" or not. Worth a shot according to the "rule".

Thanks for letting me know the rule. I do appreciate the help. Just sad that play was the last play in the championship game. We went back and next person popped out to end game.

If cheating is your bag, feel free.

I, for one, hope you try it, and film it, and post it here. Trying to "accidentally" kick something with enough precision as to get it out of play would be an impressive feat. More likely you'll give the trail runner extra bases than anything else. (And if you do manage to get it out, I suspect the umpire's going to see how precise you had to kick that ball and rule it intentional).

Hope you didn't blame the officials for your loss.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by cal9323

Well, like I said ... I guess when a ball gets past me, I will just slide and "accidentally" kick the ball under the fence.

I am not an official ... that is why I am asking.

Gee, we never would have guessed that.