Three umpire mechanics question

[Andy]

ASA SP w/Stealing....

R1 on Second, R2 on first, 1 out.

Pitch get past F2 and R1 takes off for third, F2 is quick to retrieve ball, throws to third, R1 stops and reverses direction, is caught in a rundown.

R1 is diving back into second and is tagged out on a close play. Out call is made by U1. R2 is waiting near second and steps on on the base as soon as the out call is made.

Question: Who does the call belong to on R1 in the rundown?

I say that U3 has that entire rundown between second and third and U1 stays with R2.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Andy

ASA SP w/Stealing....

R1 on Second, R2 on first, 1 out.

Pitch get past F2 and R1 takes off for third, F2 is quick to retrieve ball, throws to third, R1 stops and reverses direction, is caught in a rundown.

R1 is diving back into second and is tagged out on a close play. Out call is made by U1. R2 is waiting near second and steps on on the base as soon as the out call is made.

Question: Who does the call belong to on R1 in the rundown?

I say that U3 has that entire rundown between second and third and U1 stays with R2.

That would be my guess, what about PU at 3rd end?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

That would be my guess, what about PU at 3rd end?

I'm not so sure that would be a good idea. With three-man under this situation, U3 starts in foul territory beyond third base. U3 would have to essentially pass the runner in the rundown to get the end near second base.

The ASA umpire manual states that most rundowns are covered by one umpire, so U3 should be able to handle it. If you want to bracket under this situation, it would make more sense for U3 to take the third base end from the outside, and U1 to come inside and take the second base end. If there's a follow-on play on R2 going into second or back to first, U1 would take that from inside. The PU could move up to take the call at first, but that would go against anything that is taught.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Andy

ASA SP w/Stealing....

R1 on Second, R2 on first, 1 out.

Pitch get past F2 and R1 takes off for third, F2 is quick to retrieve ball, throws to third, R1 stops and reverses direction, is caught in a rundown.

R1 is diving back into second and is tagged out on a close play. Out call is made by U1. R2 is waiting near second and steps on on the base as soon as the out call is made.

Question: Who does the call belong to on R1 in the rundown?

I say that U3 has that entire rundown between second and third and U1 stays with R2.

In the absolute black and white, I agree, but variations based on the situation, with communication still override.

With R2 hanging right by 2nd base, I see no reason why U1 shouldn't bracket outside the 1st to 2nd base line, communicating with U3 "I'm here", keeping R2 in front of him, and taking the tag out right in front of him. If R2 had stayed near or returned near 1st base, then U1 can't do that.

But this play, as you decribe it, should allow that variation with communication, making the out call more believable.

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

That would be my guess, what about PU at 3rd end?

I.E., partial rotation when the starting position is counter-rotated? Uh-oh.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob

I.E., partial rotation when the starting position is counter-rotated? Uh-oh.

Oh yeah, I forgot the U1 starting position.

[derwil]

There is no rotation from counter rotation - Larry Montgomery

[MD Longhorn]

The next slow-pitch game I work with 3 umpires will be my first. Many if not most leagues around here pay for 1 in slow-pitch.

That said, seems relatively easy for U3 to take the front and U1 take the back of this rundown.

The OP asked "who's job is it" - it's definitely U3's job... until someone claims an end of the rundown for him

[Andy]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

The next slow-pitch game I work with 3 umpires will be my first. Many if not most leagues around here pay for 1 in slow-pitch.

That said, seems relatively easy for U3 to take the front and U1 take the back of this rundown.

The OP asked "who's job is it" - it's definitely U3's job... until someone claims an end of the rundown for him

This was in our recent SP National - winner's bracket final game.

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

With R2 hanging right by 2nd base, I see no reason why U1 shouldn't bracket outside the 1st to 2nd base line, communicating with U3 "I'm here", keeping R2 in front of him, and taking the tag out right in front of him. If R2 had stayed near or returned near 1st base, then U1 can't do that.

This is exactly what happened. U1 was our top umpire in the tournament, U3 was in her first national tournament with not a whole lot of experience in the 3 umpire system. My feedback to them was that U3 should have taken the whole rundown, she never moved too far away from third and I heard no communication between U1 and U3.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Andy

This is exactly what happened. U1 was our top umpire in the tournament, U3 was in her first national tournament with not a whole lot of experience in the 3 umpire system. My feedback to them was that U3 should have taken the whole rundown, she never moved too far away from third and I heard no communication between U1 and U3.

I'm a little confused at your feedback. If U1 came over to take that half of the rundown, there's no need for U3 to move (in fact, she is better off staying relatively close to 3rd) U3 has the whole rundown UNTIL someone else can help, and it sounds like U1 was there to help relatively soon.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Andy

This was in our recent SP National - winner's bracket final game.



This is exactly what happened. U1 was our top umpire in the tournament, U3 was in her first national tournament with not a whole lot of experience in the 3 umpire system. My feedback to them was that U3 should have taken the whole rundown, she never moved too far away from third and I heard no communication between U1 and U3.

IMO there's the problem (red text).

As AtlUmpSteve pointed out earlier.....variation [requires] communication.

Now you were there Andy and I wasn't; and I'm not questioning your feed back to U3, BUT U1 ("your top umpire in the tournament") being more experienced, I feel should have initiated the necessary communication with U3 on the play.
Winners bracket final in a National.....top ump, experience at Nats on the crew....that kind of umpire has to take on some leadership in that sitch....esp. w/ a Nats rookie. JMO

[SRW]

When we're counter-rotated, we don't rotate. U3 should never leave 3B. U1 has all calls at 1B and 2B. The dive back by R1 into 2B is U1's call, and so would have been any call on R2.

2012 ASA Umpire Manual Pages 270-271.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SRW

When we're counter-rotated, we don't rotate. U3 should never leave 3B. U1 has all calls at 1B and 2B. The dive back by R1 into 2B is U1's call, and so would have been any call on R2.

2012 ASA Umpire Manual Pages 270-271.

Absolutely and even without the manual. If U1 is already at 2B, why wouldn't s/he have a call at 2B?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

In the absolute black and white, I agree, but variations based on the situation, with communication still override.

With R2 hanging right by 2nd base, I see no reason why U1 shouldn't bracket outside the 1st to 2nd base line, communicating with U3 "I'm here", keeping R2 in front of him, and taking the tag out right in front of him. If R2 had stayed near or returned near 1st base, then U1 can't do that.

But this play, as you decribe it, should allow that variation with communication, making the out call more believable.

Depending upon where U1 started (SP infielders can really cause some deviations in pre-pitch positioning), I can even see him taking an inside bracket position. That would provide a good position for the back end of the rundown and an easy pivot should there be a need for a return play to 1B.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Andy

This was in our recent SP National - winner's bracket final game.

This is exactly what happened. U1 was our top umpire in the tournament, U3 was in her first national tournament with not a whole lot of experience in the 3 umpire system. My feedback to them was that U3 should have taken the whole rundown, she never moved too far away from third and I heard no communication between U1 and U3.

While perhaps not precedent-setting, is it unusual to have someone with not much 3-umpire system experience working that game?

And while I don't have much 3-umpire system experience myself, I'd side with those that say U3 stays near 3B and U1 would have the call @ 2B. I agree that most run downs don't last very long, but in this case there was an umpire at both ends of the play.

Oh, and I'll also say that I thought U3 was the position in 3-ump that takes the most getting used to. When I first did games there, I felt like a fish out of water. I just never had that view of the field before - it was a bit different.