Another fine mess...

[Tru_in_Blu]

ASA Invitational tournament this past weekend.

We had a situation that could have been prevented if PU had properly noted and checked his lineup card. He didn’t so we had this mess to clean up.

What would you have done? Try answering without checking out your rulebooks first. I’m not sure we got it 100% right and I’ll post what we did in a couple of days.

Pitching change:
#12 F1 moves to F7
#22 enters the game as the new pitcher, replacing #2 who was F7

All changes recorded and shared w/ the other team.

Bottom 5, team who made the above changes is now at bat. Player #22 reached base somehow. Coach requests a CR for the pitcher. PU calls time and CR replaces #22. Another batter completes a turn @ bat by walking to load the bases with 1 out.

Defensive coach asks for time to talk w/ PU. The CR that entered the game was #2. Defensive coach says she can’t be a CR because she was already in the game.

What do you do?

After the game, we went over various rules and found some we thought were relevant. So if you find some, please provide a pointer – page # or Rule/Section/etc.

Thanx.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Illegal runner; #2 is disqualified. If they have a legal courtesy runner available, they can replace her with the legal courtesy runner. If not, #22 has left the game, and must be re-entered to run for herself. No outs taken.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Illegal runner; #2 is disqualified. If they have a legal courtesy runner available, they can replace her with the legal courtesy runner. If not, #22 has left the game, and must be re-entered to run for herself. No outs taken.

And all because the umpire did not use a tool of the trade

Of course, even if the line-up card was used, before doing anything, I think most umpires may have questioned the coach as to whether s/he meant #2 was a runner or courtesy runner since (and I'm assuming) a re-entry was a possibility. If the response was CR, then the coach should be told that option was not available.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Defensive coach says she can’t be a CR because she was already in the game.

I assume you meant that the defensive coach said #2 had already played earlier in the game. From what you've told us, she was still on the bench when she was illegally entered as a CR.

Regardless, agree with the others as to the ruling. And it's quite possible that an umpire who even had a lineup card could screw this up by forgetting the ASA rule or by getting bitten by working in multiple organizations. LL Softball, for example, allows for any player not currently in the lineup, even if she had player earlier, to be used as a "courtesy" runner (I put that in quotes because, in LL Softball, they use the term "special pinch runner" to refer to a runner that comes in to run without needing to substitute, very similar to a CR).

I have that problem with that danged "show bunt" rule, where it's a strike in some organizations but not others when the batter fails to pull the bat back...

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I assume you meant that the defensive coach said #2 had already played earlier in the game. From what you've told us, she was still on the bench when she was illegally entered as a CR.

:

Correct, #2 was a starter who had been replaced. She came off the bench and entered the game as a CR.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Illegal runner; #2 is disqualified. If they have a legal courtesy runner available, they can replace her with the legal courtesy runner. If not, #22 has left the game, and must be re-entered to run for herself. No outs taken.

We get an out if #2 has no re-entry and there is no available sub that can run as a CR, correct?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by rwest

We get an out if #2 has no re-entry and there is no available sub that can run as a CR, correct?

Do you mean #22 has no re-entry?
#2 is DQ, even if she had re-entry eligibility.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by rwest

We get an out if #2 has no re-entry and there is no available sub that can run as a CR, correct?

If there is no available substitute to enter for #2 after she's disqualified, Yes, it also results in an out. ASA 4-6-C-4 EFFECT.

But under this scenario, #22 had one re-entry left, since she came in for the first time as a sub for #2.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Do you mean #22 has no re-entry?
#2 is DQ, even if she had re-entry eligibility.

I meant 22! Too many dog-gone 2's! If 22 has no re-entry and there are no subs you would have to get an out.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I assume you meant that the defensive coach said #2 had already played earlier in the game. From what you've told us, she was still on the bench when she was illegally entered as a CR.

Regardless, agree with the others as to the ruling. And it's quite possible that an umpire who even had a lineup card could screw this up by forgetting the ASA rule or by getting bitten by working in multiple organizations. LL Softball, for example, allows for any player not currently in the lineup, even if she had player earlier, to be used as a "courtesy" runner (I put that in quotes because, in LL Softball, they use the term "special pinch runner" to refer to a runner that comes in to run without needing to substitute, very similar to a CR).

I have that problem with that danged "show bunt" rule, where it's a strike in some organizations but not others when the batter fails to pull the bat back...

I feel your pain, but it comes with the job......

If you are going to work in multiple associations and organizations, you need to be ready to call the game by the rules of that group.

That is one of the reasons that I limit what organizations I call for.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Andy

I feel your pain, but it comes with the job......

If you are going to work in multiple associations and organizations, you need to be ready to call the game by the rules of that group.

That is one of the reasons that I limit what organizations I call for.

Trust me, I try to be ready. But when you call softball in NCAA, ASA, NFHS, PONY, and LL, and also call LL Baseball, it's kinda tough.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Trust me, I try to be ready. But when you call softball in NCAA, ASA, NFHS, PONY, and LL, and also call LL Baseball, it's kinda tough.

[Manny A]

I know, I know. I still feel an obligation to help out my local LL district that struggles to get volunteer umpires.

It sure does make it tough to call baseball pitches that look a helluva lot different than softball pitches.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Andy

I feel your pain, but it comes with the job......

If you are going to work in multiple associations and organizations, you need to be ready to call the game by the rules of that group.

That is one of the reasons that I limit what organizations I call for.

+1 (which I think is this boards equivalent of "like")

[Tru_in_Blu]

We got it partly right.

We DQd the illegal CR. Did this after some discussion about allowing her to remain via reentry, but the offensive coach did specify she wanted a CR. And it would not have been fair to the other team who caught the mistake.

We also called her out, which apparently was incorrect. The player she ran for, the replacement pitcher, did have a reentry available to her.

I did not realize that if we had allowed the pitcher to return to run the bases, that would have constituted a reentry for her. Can someone point to that rule reference?

I am trying to recall if there were other players available to be used as a CR. I think there may have been, but perhaps the coach thought they were not fast enough runners.

I probably got a bit mixed up with the penalty for an unreported sub, as opposed to the illegal sub when we call the runner out.

In this same game, we also had a BOO. Trying to remember if the same team committed both violations. The teams wore the exact same uniforms down to belts and socks. Same number font on the jerseys - only the team name on the front was different [and hats].

In the same tournament, we had a game end when the team's shorthanded batting slot came up, and a coach who argued that the DP replacing the FLEX did not count as a substitution.

All in all, a good learning experience weekend.

Thanx for the replies.