The Never-Ending Quest for that Fine Line

[rainmaker]

My first five seasons, I was a little quick on the trigger when it came to T's, especially with coaches. Last season, I really concentrated on that, and did a lot better. This year, I'm finding that the coaches really don't get under my skin like they have in the past, and I'm probably taking too much. Probably ought to warn sooner, and then whack sooner. Here are a couple of situations I realized later I should have handled more sternly, and a couple of questions about things I'm not sure of.

Coach A was whining, chipping, complaining, partner gave the SS, then partner whacked. After that, coach was up and walking. Before I could remind her of the seatbelt, partner did. Then I saw coach up again. I should probably have tossed her. Also, assistant was up repeatedly, and was talking to us when we weren't looking. A ref that was watching said afterward, Why didn't you run the assistant? I wondered to myself, Why didn't I?!?

I already told about the T I gave right before Christmas, to an assistant. The head coach for the other team was also a whiner, and went on and on and on. She was repeatedly out of the box, and out on the floor, and did the hands-thrown-up-in-the-air thing several times. Why didn't I T her?

Today, in the pre-game coach chat, one coach says, "We're from (another state), and we don't get treated fairly here. Yesterday, we got nothing our way, and we want a level playing field today. So how are you going to call it?" My partner (who was the R) said, "That's a tough question to ask before the game even starts, coach." She says, "Well, if that's your answer, I can see how it's gonna be." If I'd have been the R, I think I'd have tossed her right there on the spot. But I left it to my partner, who just turned and walked away. Would any of you have put up with that kind of fertilizer?

........btw, I did whack her about 5 minutes in. It was the classic "Why don't you blow the whistle?" So I did. Partner never did give the second one. He kept warning, and warning, and warning. Now, should I have gone ahead and whacked her for the second time?

She did settle down, though, and coached a heck of a second half. Her team outscored the opponent 20-0 in the third quarter. Knowing this, is it legit for my partner to look back and say, see, the warnings worked and I didn't have to throw her.

[blindzebra]

"Knowing this, is it legit for my partner to look back and say, see, the warnings worked and I didn't have to throw her."

No, I'd say the coach got what she wanted, she controlled how you called the game.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by blindzebra
"Knowing this, is it legit for my partner to look back and say, see, the warnings worked and I didn't have to throw her."

No, I'd say the coach got what she wanted, she controlled how you called the game.

So at what point would you have whacked? Before the game started? After I'd whacked once and she'd gotten the seatbelt? I agree that my partner didn't do it right. What would you have done differently?

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by rainmaker

So at what point would you have whacked? Before the game started? After I'd whacked once and she'd gotten the seatbelt? I agree that my partner didn't do it right. What would you have done differently?

How did the pregame comments come about?

You said chat, was it the coaches meeting?

Mine are short and sweet and I do it at the 2 minute mark, less chance for this kind of exchange. If it was this meeting and the coach asks what she did, I'm saying excuse me while I get the other coach.

When both coaches are there, I'd have the coach repeat her question, and if she has the guts to do it, I'll say, "We are going to call the game fairly and evenly within the rules and we don't care where either team is from." Directing a good, don't even think about messing with me stare, this coaches way.

R or not, I'm setting the tone on this one, and I seriously doubt she'd have tested you or your partner after that kind of response.

[TimTaylor]

Juulie,

I only saw the last couple minutes of the 2nd quarter, so I didn't catch the previous activity. During the 2nd half she seemed to behave OK, and did a heck of a job coaching her team. From what you described, her attitude was adversarial and confrontational, and I probably would have T'd her when she got up again after being reminded by your partner. As for the assistant, first time they get up or start chirping I'll firmly tell the head coach to get their bench under control - after that they get the T.

Since you stayed & watched our game, I'd be interested in your impressions of the coaches. White coach was actually pretty good most of the game. He really didn't like the back court violation I called in the 4th, but when blue knocked the ball loose I clearly saw it touch the white player's hand before it went into the back court & was recovered by white - guess he couldn't quite grasp the concept of team control. Blue's coach was another story entirely. In retrospect, we probably should have T'd him. It was at the point that another word from him to either my partner or I would have drawn an immediate T. His assistant didn't give me any grief, but at one point he was bending my partner's ear for most of a time out - don't understand why he put up with that. That said, blue did a great job coming from behind to tie the game with only a couple seconds left, then going on to win in overtime. Any comments or observations on what you saw would be appreciated.......

[Rich]

Originally posted by blindzebra
"Knowing this, is it legit for my partner to look back and say, see, the warnings worked and I didn't have to throw her."

No, I'd say the coach got what she wanted, she controlled how you called the game.

That's a bit rough. Where I was trained, we try really hard to have a different official give the second technical to avoid having it look like one official was out to get the coach.

It sounds like the coach got back to coaching -- isn't that what we want?

[tomegun]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Partner never did give the second one. He kept warning, and warning, and warning. Now, should I have gone ahead and whacked her for the second time?

I believe there are situations where someone deserves a T no matter who it is from. You either leave the game with the impression that one official was out to get a coach or thinking a coach should have been tossed. Which one is more accurate? The coach should have been tossed.

[FrankHtown]

Julie, I realize on a forum like this it's easy to say "yeah, let's toss the coach" but in real time, tossing the coach is the "death sentence"

Will tossing the coach make the game better? or just make you feel better? Does the coach have a valid point that the crew is ignoring? Like an opposing point guard consistantly palming the ball and getting past their defenders? Is the opposing team "boxing out" by taking her players into the second row of bleachers? Are we letting the messenger get in the way of the message?

I wish I knew what a cut and dried answer was. We had a coach last year had received a T in the 2nd quarter, and was whining about a call I made middle of the 4th quarter. Her team is down 27 points. My feeling was.."if I have to stay till the end of this mess, so do you."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by FrankHtown
Julie, I realize on a forum like this it's easy to say "yeah, let's toss the coach" but in real time, tossing the coach is the "death sentence"

Will tossing the coach make the game better? or just make you feel better? Does the coach have a valid point that the crew is ignoring? Like an opposing point guard consistantly palming the ball and getting past their defenders? Is the opposing team "boxing out" by taking her players into the second row of bleachers? Are we letting the messenger get in the way of the message?

With all due respect, Frank, that is pile of complete and utter doo-doo imo.

"Death sentence"? Give me a break. We just REACT- the coach is the one doing the dirty, not us.

That "will it make the game better?" nonsense imo usually comes from officials who are trying to make excuses for not calling a "T". Every year, the FED has to make sportsmanship a POE, and it's usually because a bunch of officials that don't have the testicular fortitude to take care of bidness. It's not a matter of the game being "better"; these clowns are acting in an unsporting manner and getting clean away with it. Imo, that makes the game worse.

If the coach deserves a "T", then damn well give 'em one. If you think that you shoulda "T"ed a coach, then you suresheck shoulda. I see descriptions above like "whining", "chipping", "complaining", and nothing got called. I see a coach directly questioning our fellow officials' integrity and nothing got called. I see coaches who have been seat-belted still up wandering around and nothing got called. I see assistant coaches up on the feet bugging the officials and nothing got called. Hey, that's fine. The bottom line is that if you want to put up with the nonsense, then don't whine about it later. Just set your own do-not-cross line and stick to it. That I don't have a problem with.

I apologize for the rant, Frank. Nothing personal but you hit a nerve. That's one of my pet peeves.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

With all due respect, Frank, that is pile of complete and utter doo-doo imo.

"Death sentence"? Give me a break. We just REACT- the coach is the one doing the dirty, not us.

That "will it make the game better?" nonsense imo usually comes from officials who are trying to make excuses for not calling a "T". Every year, the FED has to make sportsmanship a POE, and it's usually because a bunch of officials that don't have the testicular fortitude to take care of bidness. It's not a matter of the game being "better"; these clowns are acting in an unsporting manner and getting clean away with it. Imo, that makes the game worse.

If the coach deserves a "T", then damn well give 'em one. If you think that you shoulda "T"ed a coach, then you suresheck shoulda. I see descriptions above like "whining", "chipping", "complaining", and nothing got called. I see a coach directly questioning our fellow officials' integrity and nothing got called. I see coaches who have been seat-belted still up wandering around and nothing got called. I see assistant coaches up on the feet bugging the officials and nothing got called. Hey, that's fine. The bottom line is that if you want to put up with the nonsense, then don't whine about it later. Just set your own do-not-cross line and stick to it. That I don't have a problem with.

I apologize for the rant, Frank. Nothing personal but you hit a nerve. That's one of my pet peeves.

My pet peeve is an official who doesn't consider the game AFTER the T/ejection and whether the technical makes things better. It's easy to "react" and whack someone -- it's harder to pick up the pieces sometimes.

Frank's post, I think, was well thought out.

[FrankHtown]

JR

The correct phrase is "My grandfather's work was doo-doo."

Signed,
Dr. Frankensteen

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Today, in the pre-game coach chat, one coach says, "We're from (another state), and we don't get treated fairly here. Yesterday, we got nothing our way, and we want a level playing field today. So how are you going to call it?"

Smile sweetly & say "We're gonna homer your @ss back to Podunk coach, so just sit back & enjoy the ride". Shake her hand & walk away.

Nothing to do with this type other than shove it back in her face.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
... consider the game AFTER the T/ejection ...

I can't tell if you are referring to the same contest in which the Ts are given or the following contest. As you know many states have requirements that DQs result in a suspension from the following game.

If the reference is to the same contest, then I can tell you that any problems caused by that coach will definitely go away.

If the following contest, I believe that is where the true benefit comes. The next crew doesn't have to deal with this mess because you took care of it. If you can address unsporting behavior in such a way that you prevent your fellow officials who follow your work with a certain team or at a certain location from having similar problems, then you have done a heck of a job.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Smile sweetly & say "We're gonna homer your @ss back to Podunk coach, so just sit back & enjoy the ride". Shake her hand & walk away.

I laughed for five minutes after reading this!

I found it so funny that I'm calling my friends and telling them.

I nominate this post for the best response to a coach for 2005. It was submitted just in time.

[just another ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker




Today, in the pre-game coach chat, one coach says, "We're from (another state), and we don't get treated fairly here. Yesterday, we got nothing our way, and we want a level playing field today. So how are you going to call it?" My partner (who was the R) said, "That's a tough question to ask before the game even starts, coach." She says, "Well, if that's your answer, I can see how it's gonna be."

"Coach, Benjamin Franklin once said 'I expect the worst, then if anything else happens I am pleasantly surprised.'
You're halfway there."