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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 10:10am
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Dealing with the failure to award a merited free throw, what event separates the official's decision of having the game continued with either the lane filled and the resulting rebound/made free throw endline throw-in, or the lane not filled and a throw-in at the spot where the game was interrupted?

In the case where there is not just one event (possibly by conflicting rules and/or cases), please list the events and the supporting rules and/or cases.
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 11:31am
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NCAA rules:

Continue with the lane filled if there's been no change of possession. Otherwise shoot the FT(s) with the lane cleared and continue from PoI. This is Rule 2-11.4.

So if A1 is fouled and does not get a merited FT and the error is identified within the proper time, continue with the lane filled if only A has had possession since the foul.

Seems simple enough to me. What's the subtlety that you're thinking of?
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 11:40am
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In NFHS, if the error was caught in time, the error can be corrected. As said earlier, if there has been no change in possession when the error is caught then the lane is filled and play continues from that point. However, if A1 shoots and misses, B1 rebounds and A1 steals, and then the horn blows and the error is caught, the lane would be empty to shoot the foul shots and the ball would be inbounded by A because that is the POI.
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 12:02pm
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Define a change of possession.
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 12:08pm
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Here's the sitch:

T calls a hold on B1. A1 should have had the 1+1, but a throw-in was awarded instead. A sets up the half-court offense, and after a rebound, knocks the ball OOB.

Let's say the error is discovered. The lane is filled.

Let's say the official signals in B's direction. What happens to the lane?

Let's say B4 now has the ball OOB for their throw-in.

I'm guessing that the definition of COP is that B has the ball, and does not include only that the official has ruled that B gets possession.
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 12:11pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by JugglingReferee
Define a change of possession.
(1)Sometime during the period beginning when A is not awarded the FT and ending when the error is discovered, B has TC of the ball

-or-

(2) It will be B's ball after the dead ball period in which the error is discovered.
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 12:37pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by JugglingReferee
Define a change of possession.
(1)Sometime during the period beginning when A is not awarded the FT and ending when the error is discovered, B has TC of the ball

-or-

(2) It will be B's ball after the dead ball period in which the error is discovered.
So, by (2), the officials (who shall remain nameless ) should have cleared the lane and continued with POI.
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 01:24pm
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by JugglingReferee
Quote:
T calls a hold on B1. A1 should have had the 1+1, but a throw-in was awarded instead. A sets up the half-court offense, and after a rebound, knocks the ball OOB.

[T]he officials [...] should have cleared the lane and continued with POI.
IMHO, yes.
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 01:27pm
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An interesting question just occurred to me. Suppose we have the same basic situation, where B1 fouls A1 with A in the bonus, but A is awarded the ball out of bounds. A2 takes a shot and misses and A3 gets the rebound. At this point the error is discovered.

Has there been a change in possession? On the one hand, B never gained possession, so it's tempting to say no. On the other hand, A gave up possession when A2 takes his/her shot, so it's tempting to say yes.

Since "possession" is not defined in Rule 4, it's hard to say which wins.
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 03:26pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lotto
An interesting question just occurred to me. Suppose we have the same basic situation, where B1 fouls A1 with A in the bonus, but A is awarded the ball out of bounds. A2 takes a shot and misses and A3 gets the rebound. At this point the error is discovered.

Has there been a change in possession? On the one hand, B never gained possession, so it's tempting to say no. On the other hand, A gave up possession when A2 takes his/her shot, so it's tempting to say yes.

Since "possession" is not defined in Rule 4, it's hard to say which wins.
Well, reading from the Book of Bob, a change of possession is:

"Sometime during the period beginning when A is not awarded the FT and ending when the error is discovered, B has TC of the ball"

So, by that standard . . .

But it sure looks like you have a good tehnical point. Is it Nevada-worthy?
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 04:55pm
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In my sitch, the official had signalled that is was B's ball. B had not yet received the ball OOB, but everyone had been informed what was going to happen.

Then we realized the error. Both of us thought that until B actually had the ball (ie. possession), it has not qualified as a COP.

Does B having the ball OOB qualify as a COP?
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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 05:53pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by JugglingReferee
In my sitch, the official had signalled that is was B's ball. B had not yet received the ball OOB, but everyone had been informed what was going to happen.

Then we realized the error. Both of us thought that until B actually had the ball (ie. possession), it has not qualified as a COP.

Does B having the ball OOB qualify as a COP?
Yes, imo. See 2.10.1A (last year's reference). If "getting the ball" because of the posession arrow qualifies as COP, then "getting the ball" becuase of an OOB violation (or other) should also qualify.

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Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 10:45pm
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Agreed. I guess I incorrectly assigned possession to mean live ball control.

Thanks.
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Old Sun Feb 05, 2006, 03:11am
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Whenever B has earned the ball through a foul, violation, steal, or rebound, they have possession. They have earned the possession the moment of the foul, violation, rebound or steal...even if the throwin (for the violation or foul) has not even begun. After that point, the merited FTs should be shot with the lane cleared.
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Old Mon Feb 06, 2006, 12:07pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust

Whenever B has earned the ball through a foul, violation, steal, or rebound, they have possession. They have earned the possession the moment of the foul, violation, rebound or steal...even if the throwin (for the violation or foul) has not even begun. After that point, the merited FTs should be shot with the lane cleared.
So you'd say it isn't when they receive the ball for the throw-in, but when the violation is committed?
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