Controversial Call (No Call)?

[tcannizzo]

Championship Game 10-U Qualifier. I am PU.

R1 on 3B with 1 out.
B3 taps grounder to F5.
R1 coming home and slides under the tag at the plate. SAFE!
Not only under the tag, but under F2.

F2 holds the tag for an extended period of time. Why? I don’t know.
R1 was under F2, but not what I would consider “pinned”.
There was “space” between them, she could gotten out of there by crawling backwards towards 3B.

Here is where it gets interesting:
R1 gets impatient, takes both hands, puts them on F2’s chest, and “shoves” F2 off of her with significant force, basically knocking F2 on her fanny.
I throw both hands up and loudly declared “TIME" and just paused.

Of course my mind is racing.
I stood there for a good three seconds just looking down at the 2 players with my hands up (I think they were still up).
Came “this close” to ejecting a 10 y/o.

Instead, I walked towards 3B dugout and beckoned the OC.
Since the moment I declared TIME, I was “down-shifting” about 15 lower gears in my mind.

By the time coach came over, I calmly asked, “Coach, can you give me one good reason why I shouldn’t eject your player?”
Coach was contrite.
DC came over and he said that he had no problem with what just happened.

Took a deep breathe and I said to both coaches, “OK look, this is the Championship Game, emotions are running high, let me just take this opportunity to issue a warning to both teams, that if anything else happens, I will have no choice.”

They both agreed and we finished the game without further incident.

So far, I have gotten some support for this, but open to discussion.


I am especially interested to hear what your guidelines are for MC and USC. I know the old saying, "You will know it when you see it", but last night, I saw it and didn't know what I saw. Especially in light of what has been going on in these college games over the past couple weeks.


What say ye?

[UmpireErnie]

Tony, you never mentioned making a safe call on this play but I am assuming you did.

The runner who has now scored has no reason to move any further until the fielder gets off her. Since she should have heard your safe call she knows this. So for her to get impatient and to shove the catcher to the ground to me sounds completely unwarranted and could certainly be considered as MC.

If it was an 18U game do you think you would have ejected the runner? I may be reading between the lines in your post but it sounds as if maybe you didn't want to eject simply because she is a 10 year old. Sure they are cute but they can be tossed!

Having said that, having not decided at the time to eject it sounds like your game management with the moments following this incident were excellent. Apparently the game continued and all was well.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

Tony, you never mentioned making a safe call on this play but I am assuming you did.

Line 4: "R1 coming home and slides under the tag at the plate. SAFE!"
That was meant to indicate that I called her Safe.

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

The runner who has now scored has no reason to move any further until the fielder gets off her. Since she should have heard your safe call she knows this. So for her to get impatient and to shove the catcher to the ground to me sounds completely unwarranted and could certainly be considered as MC.

Right, except for get the heck off of me. I was thinking the same thing that R1 was - What are you doing "Catch"?

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

If it was an 18U game do you think you would have ejected the runner? I may be reading between the lines in your post but it sounds as if maybe you didn't want to eject simply because she is a 10 year old. Sure they are cute but they can be tossed!

If this happened a couple weeks ago, I would have tossed the 10 y/o immediately. But with these recent college game discussions, I am really confused about defining MC/USC. I have a few cases in mind that would leave no doubt, but this one I have to classify as more gray area. Maybe I am over-analyzing it.

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

Having said that, having not decided at the time to eject it sounds like your game management with the moments following this incident were excellent. Apparently the game continued and all was well.

One of the factors I used was that how to best keep control of the rest of the game. And this may have been my overriding decision point.
Eject someone, and then there may be retaliation, and possible further ejections.

A berth was riding on the game and I hoped that I sent a loud and clear message to players, coaches and even parents.

[MrRabbit]

If she was safe you should have called time long before you did.

These are 10 year old's and I have had them tell me that they were told by the coach to hold the tag until umpire called the runner out.

So nothing else, even calling her safe is going to replace that thought in her mind.

But on the way you handled it good job.

[tcannizzo]

Again, I wrote something confusing because nobody is getting it.

As soon as she slid under F2, I called a Sell Safe, even pointing to the runner getting under the tag.
There was no question about that call. I just didn't emphasize it enough in the message board.


Just out of curiosity, when is it that you think I finally called Safe? No really, I am curious about it.

[UmpireErnie]

Sorry Tony, guess I should slow down when reading the OP! Yes, you state you made a safe call. My bad.

Obviously I was not there to see the play; I promise I am NOT saying you were wrong with the no-call followed by the warning. All evidence to the contrary, the game finished without further incident.

I agree, F2 had no reason to continue to hold the tag but that in and of itself is not a reason for the runner to shove her. IMO some of the no-calls made in the NCAA tournament are going to lead to more players at lower levels pushing the MC envelope; and that opinion is only reinforced by your comment that until recently you would have ejected without a second thought. The no-call on a player who slid in to home and was tagged out then well after the play while getting untangled from F2 obviously and deliberately shoved F2 to the ground stands out as a play where an ejection was warranted.

So I guess that while I am not saying your no-call was wrong; I can certainly say I would have supported your decision to make an ejection if you had.

[RKBUmp]

Originally Posted by MrRabbit

If she was safe you should have called time long before you did..

Play was at the plate, there is still a batter/runner to deal with. What were they doing? If they are still advancing or off base, time should not be called.

[shagpal]

perhaps it's because the subject of your title of this thread you started implies "no call". it suggests to readers that you made NO CALL.

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Again, I wrote something confusing because nobody is getting it.

As soon as she slid under F2, I called a Sell Safe, even pointing to the runner getting under the tag.
There was no question about that call. I just didn't emphasize it enough in the message board.


Just out of curiosity, when is it that you think I finally called Safe? No really, I am curious about it.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

...I may be reading between the lines in your post but it sounds as if maybe you didn't want to eject simply because she is a 10 year old...

This was my thought as well when reading the situation.

As described, I see MC and an ejection. At any age level.

My second question would be what else was going on? You mentioned that a ball had been put in play...Where is the B/R? Is she still trying to advance? Was there any possibility of an interference call?

[tcannizzo]

OK, now I see it. The title of the topic is certainly misleading and was not intended to confuse.
The "No Call" would have more accurately been "No Ejection".

As for the age level, maybe it did have more influence than I would have liked to have admitted; and honestly, I am not sure what I would have done in 18-G, in spite of what I wrote earlier. Maybe it was that I was more shocked to see this at 10 rather than an upper age. The recent college stuff really has me second guessing myself about what should and shouldn't be allowed.


Finally, the "rest of the play". Good question and yes, there was action going on at the time that I killed the play. Specifically, BR was still running and about 8-10 feet from 2B. I looked when I killed it.

If I waited until BR had finished running:
a.) no telling how far she would have gotten before F2 (and coaches) remembered she was out there.
b.) F2 may have retaliated/escalated which I gave priority to, and therefore reacted instantly to prevent.

I left BR at 2B with the rationale that she would have definitely reached 2B had I not killed the play.

[RKBUmp]

Sometimes I wonder if it may actually be better to be a little stricter on the younger ages regarding conduct. That way they are getting the message earlier rough play wont be tolerated, and then maybe we wont be dealing with it at 18G level.

Now that you have brought up this subject, I had my first ever ejection of a player last week. This also was a qualifying tournament, 14U and the home team was being handled by the visitors. Things had been getting a little more chippy as the game progressed and I had just warned F1 of the home team about hard tags on runners. In the bottom of the last inning, the batter cue balled a grounder up the 1st base line which was spinning wildly just along the foul side of the line and rolled about 40' toward 1st. F3 moved up, straddled the line and just as the ball got to her it spun across the line into fair territory. F3 picked up the ball, was standing completely stationary just holding the ball waiting to tag the batter/runner. Initially the batter hadnt run because the ball hit well foul, but now is trucking down the line obviously disgusted. F3 did nothing, just stood there holding the ball about a foot from her body waiting to tag the B/R. Just as she got there, the B/R raised her fists up into her chest, stuck her elbows out and just blasted F3. I clearly saw the look of pure anger on her face as she did it and I immediately tossed her on the spot.

This was an instentanious decision on my part and was based as much on the look I saw on the girls face as well as the physical hit. I truly believe this girl intended to do physical harm. It was a very publicly displayed action, and as I said I immediately tossed her on the spot. After the game we were discussing the game with the UIC in the umpires room when the tournament director interjected he prefers player ejections to be kept private and not public. He said I should have just called time, called the coach over and told her we needed a sub because #5 is being ejected, there is no need to embarass the girls with a public ejection.

My question is, public or private ejection? I would tend to agree if the girl had done something that was not public, such as mouthing off or cussing at me where no one else really heard it. In those instances no one else is really aware of what has happened. However, in my situation it was a very out in the open and public display of aggression and I believed it warranted an immediate and public reaction from me. Opinions?

[Gulf Coast Blue]

I once ejected a 10U girl for USC. She over-slid 2nd by a good bit on a steal, rolled over onto her backside and started to madly kick at the F4 and her glove (I assumed she was trying to knock the ball loose) as she attempted to tag her while off the base.

I did wind up calling time and the runner out....(even without a tag).

I think you handled this well Tony......I am sure you were caught a little off guard as was I when it happened.

Joel

[CecilOne]

TD is wrong (if they are allowed to be). That blatant and VISBLE act needs to be VISIBLY handled. Not to say over kill on a signal and not rubbing it in incitefully, just immediate and visible, then quietly being sure the coach gets the notice and the message.

As far as the above about NCAA on TV, not a good example for us or good precedent. Those cases have been beaten up and down in other topics, but seem to have more to do with where they are, high level coaches, umpires with too much concern about the status of the games, etc. Not instructional for us on MC, UC, OBS, INT, etc.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MrRabbit

If she was safe you should have called time long before you did.

Why? We don't call time every time someone is safe.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Championship Game 10-U Qualifier. I am PU.

R1 on 3B with 1 out.
B3 taps grounder to F5.
R1 coming home and slides under the tag at the plate. SAFE!
Not only under the tag, but under F2.

F2 holds the tag for an extended period of time. Why? I don’t know.
R1 was under F2, but not what I would consider “pinned”.
There was “space” between them, she could gotten out of there by crawling backwards towards 3B.

Here is where it gets interesting:
R1 gets impatient, takes both hands, puts them on F2’s chest, and “shoves” F2 off of her with significant force, basically knocking F2 on her fanny.
I throw both hands up and loudly declared “TIME" and just paused.

Of course my mind is racing.
I stood there for a good three seconds just looking down at the 2 players with my hands up (I think they were still up).
Came “this close” to ejecting a 10 y/o.

Instead, I walked towards 3B dugout and beckoned the OC.
Since the moment I declared TIME, I was “down-shifting” about 15 lower gears in my mind.

By the time coach came over, I calmly asked, “Coach, can you give me one good reason why I shouldn’t eject your player?”
Coach was contrite.
DC came over and he said that he had no problem with what just happened.

Took a deep breathe and I said to both coaches, “OK look, this is the Championship Game, emotions are running high, let me just take this opportunity to issue a warning to both teams, that if anything else happens, I will have no choice.”

They both agreed and we finished the game without further incident.

So far, I have gotten some support for this, but open to discussion.


I am especially interested to hear what your guidelines are for MC and USC. I know the old saying, "You will know it when you see it", but last night, I saw it and didn't know what I saw. Especially in light of what has been going on in these college games over the past couple weeks.


What say ye?

Honestly, sounds like very good game management at ANY level to me.