Assist?

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by xtreamump

I am going to have an out even if I have to apply common sense. This is very good and healthy discussion. (Do not let it happen)

I agree with mbcrower what is the out for? I have a question for you. Let's take the assisting the runner out of this play for a minute. If this situation had occurred and the runner just though 'O maybe I didn't touch' on her own and that runner then touched home after a following runner had scored. Would you have considered that a proper re-touch and ruled the runner safe if the defensive properly appealed that runner missing the plate??

I am hoping that you would have ruled that runner out in my play listed above, since that's a straight by the book ruling. So if you agree that in the above situation that the runner isn't allowed to re-touch home once a following runner has scored, then what in the OP is the out for?? There was nothing for that coach to assist the runner in doing. Applying common sense isn't always a bad thing, but it should not be done when it is in direct conflict with the rules, as it would be if you call an out in this case.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

I agree with mbcrower what is the out for? I have a question for you. Let's take the assisting the runner out of this play for a minute. If this situation had occurred and the runner just though 'O maybe I didn't touch' on her own and that runner then touched home after a following runner had scored. Would you have considered that a proper re-touch and ruled the runner safe if the defensive properly appealed that runner missing the plate??

I am hoping that you would have ruled that runner out in my play listed above, since that's a straight by the book ruling. So if you agree that in the above situation that the runner isn't allowed to re-touch home once a following runner has scored, then what in the OP is the out for?? There was nothing for that coach to assist the runner in doing. Applying common sense isn't always a bad thing, but it should not be done when it is in direct conflict with the rules, as it would be if you call an out in this case.

And I certainly hope you're not going to talk the coach in to appealing the missed base.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

I agree with mbcrower what is the out for?

How about assisting the runner into deceiving the inept defense that they had no appeal? I mean we've taken the position in this thread that the coach didn't help the runner. But if she obviously missed the plate and we would have had an appeal but because the coach physically assisted her to go back to the plate we didn't then he did assist her.
I'm not sold on that but wondered what you all thought. (My biggest concern is that we couldn't know if he was guilty of anything until after we see if the defense appeals.)

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

And I certainly hope you're not going to talk the coach in to appealing the missed base.

Me?? I'm not talking them into or out of anything!

[Andy]

Originally Posted by youngump

How about assisting the runner into deceiving the inept defense that they had no appeal? I mean we've taken the position in this thread that the coach didn't help the runner. But if she obviously missed the plate and we would have had an appeal but because the coach physically assisted her to go back to the plate we didn't then he did assist her.
I'm not sold on that but wondered what you all thought. (My biggest concern is that we couldn't know if he was guilty of anything until after we see if the defense appeals.)

It's on the defense to know the rule. Once the second runner scores, it doesn't matter if the lead runner goes back and touches the plate, she is still subject to appeal up until the next pitch is thrown. If the defense thinks that the coach pushing her back toward the plate to touch it takes away their appeal, that's not my problem. I will answer the question from the coach about the "assist" in the same manner that we have discussed previously in this thread, but I will not indicate to the coach that he has an appeal available.

Now...what would you all say to informing the coach about the ruling and explaining that the appeal was available at a later point in the game, if the situation presented itself?

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by cteben

(snip)
now, if you are doing college ball, as umpire at the plate, you are required to signal safe along with announcing a "No Tag" verbal. with that ncaa verbal requirement, if they dont appeal, they cant blame us.

No play on either runner.... Where does NCAA require a signal and a verbal?

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

Me?? I'm not talking them into or out of anything!

No, I meant xtreamump. I'm not sure how he thought he would get an out without hinting to the D coach that they need to appeal.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by youngump

How about assisting the runner into deceiving the inept defense that they had no appeal?
(snip)

Re-read that and get back to me - is it possible we are overthinking????

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Andy

(snip)
Now...what would you all say to informing the coach about the ruling and explaining that the appeal was available at a later point in the game, if the situation presented itself?

I'd say sometimes we feel too much of a need to 'splain things.
If a coach really wants to know, let him/her ask off the field.....


PS - I admit to being guilty sometimes - and I always regret it!

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Andy

...Now...what would you all say to informing the coach about the ruling and explaining that the appeal was available at a later point in the game, if the situation presented itself?

I'm not initiating any discussion. If the coach wants to ask later, fine, so long as he is calm and professional about it.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Re-read that and get back to me - is it possible we are overthinking????

It's always possible I'm overthinking it. And I'm not going there, just wondered if anybody thought there was meat there.

[cteben]

7.1.1.2.5 (a) page 68 under appeals

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

No play on either runner.... Where does NCAA require a signal and a verbal?

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by cteben

7.1.1.2.5 (a) page 68 under appeals

Doesn't that rule assume that there was either a tag attempt by the catcher, or that the catcher had possession of the ball in the vicinity of home plate?

It doesn't make sense for an umpire to be yelling, "No tag!", when a runner crosses the plate while the ball is still in the outfield.

[x-tremeump]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

No, I meant xtreamump. I'm not sure how he thought he would get an out without hinting to the D coach that they need to appeal.

It must be me , even in a 10U JO fast pitch softball game in this sitch here, (I DO NOT SAY ANYTHING OR HINT TO ANY COACH) I Officiate. I know that if coaches that see an opposing coach physically assisting ???? a runner back to the dish after another runner has scored I am expecting a proper appeal. Again it must be just here, because it looks like everyplace beside here there is a bunch of blank stares, between everyone involved in the game that I love. Maybe I hurry up and get a pitch ?

[cteben]

yes, it does. but it also means you are alerting the defense on the runner missing the plate if the catcher makes no attempt.

Originally Posted by BretMan

Doesn't that rule assume that there was either a tag attempt by the catcher, or that the catcher had possession of the ball in the vicinity of home plate?

It doesn't make sense for an umpire to be yelling, "No tag!", when a runner crosses the plate while the ball is still in the outfield.