Illegal Pitches???

[Tex]

a) Also add that some umpires state that the "Batter must be in the batter's box" before an illegal pitch can be called. Please state any rule in any rule book that states this.
b) Suppose the catcher is in the catcher's box. What do you do? Are the illegal motions still ignored because the batter is not in the batter's box?

[ronald]

in the case book cited, does the phrase take the pitchers position ... mean be in it when all parameters are met, ie the catcher in position? i guess we need to get out the real big dictionary to see all the definitions for take.

[Tex]

What are the "all parameters are met" besides the catcher in position? Indicate supporting rule.

I believe most of us have been to clinics and have seen video(s) on illegal pitching. Most videos are focused only on the pitcher doing illegal motions, such as: stepping onto the pitching plate with hands together, hands double touching while on the pitching plate, etc. We all say illegal pitching.

Now if the same video(s) could be expanded to include the batter's box, and now observe that the batter is not in the batter's box, is the pitch still illegal? Again where is the supporting rule that states the batter has to be in the batter's box before the illegal pitch can be called?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Okay, so we got the interpretation we didn't have before. Good thing.

However, maybe I'm just missing it, but we still have a question concerning the "hands" issue.

It seems that the question has been answered about doing something before the batter enters the box, but what if the illegal act continues and the pitcher doesn't correct it? If you cannot have an IP without the batter in the box, how can you have a legal pitch where the requirments began prior to the batter entering the BB?

The pitcher takes her position on the PP and brings the hand together while you are holding up a stop sign waiting for the batter to enter the box.

Now what do you do? However, if the pitcher doesn't reset, do you call the IP for not assimilating taking the signals with the hands separated? If you proceed to direct the pitcher to pitch, s/he will only be doing what you instructed him/her to do.

Well, here we go again.

[x-tremeump]

I read all posts and the best statement was do not look for BOOGERS. Play ball. Being Over Officious is not Good Umpiring. Call Good IP's don't go out of your way to find them, they will find you.

[MrRabbit]

Originally Posted by Tex

What are the "all parameters are met" besides the catcher in position? Indicate supporting rule.

I believe most of us have been to clinics and have seen video(s) on illegal pitching. Most videos are focused only on the pitcher doing illegal motions, such as: stepping onto the pitching plate with hands together, hands double touching while on the pitching plate, etc. We all say illegal pitching.

Now if the same video(s) could be expanded to include the batter's box, and now observe that the batter is not in the batter's box, is the pitch still illegal? Again where is the supporting rule that states the batter has to be in the batter's box before the illegal pitch can be called?

From 2012 Rule Clarifications and Plays ASA web site...

Rule 6, Section 1A and B When taking the pitching position in contact with the pitcher’s plate, the pitcher must have their hands separated and must have the ball in either the glove or the pitching hand. The pitcher shall not be considered in the pitching position unless the catcher is in position to receive the pitch.

Rule 6, Section 10B The pitcher attempts a quick return of the ball before the batter has taken a position in the batter’s box or when the batter is off balance.
EFFECT: Section 10 A-E: The ball is dead, all subsequent action on that pitch is cancelled.

Rule 7, Section 3A: Prior to the pitch, the batter must have both feet completely within the lines of the batter’s box. The batter may touch the lines, but no part of the foot may be outside the lines prior to the pitch.

These three rules show the preliminaries of the pitch, what an umpire should do if the batter is not in the box or ready to receive a pitch, and that the batter has to be completely in the batter’s box prior to the pitch. So when looking at these rules together we have rule support that a batter must be in the box before a pitch legal or illegal can be delivered.

This is a great example why we say apply the rules to the play and not the play to the rule. Get to know the rules better and use the entire ASA Rules of Softball as a body of work to help guide you in those situations.

[x-tremeump]

Originally Posted by MrRabbit

From 2012 Rule Clarifications and Plays ASA web site...

Rule 6, Section 1A and B When taking the pitching position in contact with the pitcher’s plate, the pitcher must have their hands separated and must have the ball in either the glove or the pitching hand. The pitcher shall not be considered in the pitching position unless the catcher is in position to receive the pitch.

Rule 6, Section 10B The pitcher attempts a quick return of the ball before the batter has taken a position in the batter’s box or when the batter is off balance.
EFFECT: Section 10 A-E: The ball is dead, all subsequent action on that pitch is canceled.

Rule 7, Section 3A: Prior to the pitch, the batter must have both feet completely within the lines of the batter’s box. The batter may touch the lines, but no part of the foot may be outside the lines prior to the pitch.

These three rules show the preliminaries of the pitch, what an umpire should do if the batter is not in the box or ready to receive a pitch, and that the batter has to be completely in the batter’s box prior to the pitch. So when looking at these rules together we have rule support that a batter must be in the box before a pitch legal or illegal can be delivered.

This is a great example why we say apply the rules to the play and not the play to the rule. Get to know the rules better and use the entire ASA Rules of Softball as a body of work to help guide you in those situations.

Good Post, The more games you do the better you will get ad calling IP's. Sunday I Umpired 2 12u FP games and I had IP's, LBR, OBR. and we had a great time. These Coaches are volunteer's. I hate to say this but that is a huge difference. Work all of the games that you can, If you try hard enough every Umpire can learn something new.

[UmpireErnie]

In a high school game played under NFHS rules this evening I had a pitcher who was very quick to get back on the plate once she recieved the ball. Often after a ball was put into play, once my partner was in position and we made the eye contact "hand off" I would move back to set up for the next pitch only to find F1 already standing on the PP, hands together, waiting.

I have no idea if she toed up with her hands together or not. I just gave the "wait to pitch" signal until the batter was in the box, and away we went.

Just as I am not going to guess an out, I don't guess an IP. I assumed she had her hands apart then came together and stopped and waited until I released her.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

Just as I am not going to guess an out, I don't guess an IP. I assumed she had her hands apart then came together and stopped and waited until I released her.

And that is where I disagree with those of the philosophy of seeing/searching for all the elements which make a pitch legal occur. AFAIC, every pitch is legal until I see something which makes it illegal.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by MrRabbit

Rule 6, Section 10B The pitcher attempts a quick return of the ball before the batter has taken a position in the batter’s box or when the batter is off balance.
EFFECT: Section 10 A-E: The ball is dead, all subsequent action on that pitch is cancelled.

This is one of the most ludicrious rules in ASA and many other codes.

What sense does this make:

1: Pitcher steps on the PP with her hands together. Pitcher takes a signal. Pitcher pitches to a batter who is read in the batter's box. Rule - Illegal pitch.

2: Pitcher steps on the PP and delivers the ball in a dangerous and unexpected manner in a deliberate attempt to quick pitch. Rule - No pitch.

A quick pitch is dangerous. It's unexpected. And it is deliberate almost all of the time, with a possible exception of very low level play with new pitchers. Any second act of quick pitching is clearly deliberate because it has already been called once.

So why is there NO penalty for a deliberate, dangerous, unexpected and unsportsmanlike act (unless you think "no pitch" is a penalty - wrong), but we are willing to give a potential winning runner on 3rd home when the pitcher walks on with her hands together?

My beef isn't so much with number "1" above, it's with number "2" and the wholly inappropriate penalty.