Illegal Pitches???

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

I would have to argue the catchers box does in fact have a front line, as it is described in Rule 2-3-D as being 8.5' X 10' in dimensions and is also shown as that dimension on the field diagram.

Not sure if I see that in the text of 2-3-D... Doesn't it actually state?

Catcher's Box
The catcher’s box shall be as wide as the two batter’s boxes from outside line to outside line, 8.5 feet wide for fast pitch and 10.5 feet wide for Slow Pitch and 16” Slow Pitch.

I have never seen a rectangle drawn to define the catcher's box. The most I have ever seen was three lines, left, right and back.

Rules Supplement: Catcher's Box
Catchers must remain in the catcher’s box until the pitch is released. The catcher may move closer to the plate without penalty when the batter is positioned in the front portion of the batter’s box during a pitch. However, the catcher must, at all times, still avoid catcher’s obstruction as the batter has the right to the entire batter’s box.

And while this sounds self-contradicting, it essentially means that IF there was a frontal boundary, it is to be ignored.; which translates to its non-existence, at least as an enforceable boundary.


The only reference to for F2 being too far forward which appears in multiple places in the Rules, RS and Umpire's Manual all say the same thing

Catcher's Obstruction:
3. The catcher steps on, or in front of home plate without the ball and prevents the batter from hitting the ball.

Here is where it gets interesting (at least for me) because I do not know the answer, and I enjoy these hypothetical, theoretical, TWP discussions.

Consider:

Section 5. DEFENSIVE POSITIONING.
A. The pitcher shall not deliver a pitch unless all available defensive players are positioned in fair territory, except the catcher who must be in the catcher’s box.

F2 is the only defensive player who is not required to be in fair territory.
But, is F2 required to be in foul territory?
Theoretically and TWP, with B is at the extreme fwd position in the batter's box it is possible for F2 to take a position in the opposite batter's box and be positioned in fair territory. Clearly at the risk of committing CO, or getting killed, but physically possible.

With the above references to CO caused by F2 being on, over or in front of HP, could it be that the enforceable frontal boundary of the CB be the Foul Lines?

I realize that this is "out there", but the board has been slow and we haven't had much trolling action lately. So humor me.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by Tex

Good discussion and comments, but keep in mind what the origional question is:
"Can an illegal pitch be called if the batter is not in the batter's box while the pitcher is doing illegal motions standing on the pitching plate?"

Are HugoTafurst and myself the only umpires who may call an illegal pitch?

I can think of a couple of illegal actions that does not require the batter to be in the batter's box for me to call IP:
> Foreign substance
> Too many warm-ups
> F2 not returning ball to F1 with no runners on base

But not sure if i would bang:
> Double touch
> Taking plate with both hands together
With B out of BB, wouldn't we have a hand up holding up F1?

[RKBUmp]

Not sure if I see that in the text of 2-3-D... Doesn't it actually state?

Quote:
Catcher's Box
The catcher’s box shall be as wide as the two batter’s boxes from outside line to outside line, 8.5 feet wide for fast pitch and 10.5 feet wide for Slow Pitch and 16” Slow Pitch.

Now add "and 10' long" to that and you will have the complete 2-3-D. The catchers box in fast pitch is 8.5' X 10'.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Now add "and 10' long" to that and you will have the complete 2-3-D. The catchers box in fast pitch is 8.5' X 10'.

I will concede this point but that doesn't change the enforcement of keeping the catcher behind the back lines of the batter's box. It may be a boundary, but it is an unenforceable boundary since there is no penalty associated with it, and that is explicitly allowed.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Now add "and 10' long" to that and you will have the complete 2-3-D. The catchers box in fast pitch is 8.5' X 10'.

Turn the page

[umpirebob71]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Turn the page

Bob Seger

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Tex

Good discussion and comments, but keep in mind what the origional question is:
"Can an illegal pitch be called if the batter is not in the batter's box while the pitcher is doing illegal motions standing on the pitching plate?"

Are HugoTafurst and myself the only umpires who may call an illegal pitch?

And please note the word.. may. My original response was to the simple question "can" the illegal pitch be called with the batter out of the box.
With the further descriptions of situations, I can envision situations where IP WOULD NOT be called.
But those require further descriptive information.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

I can think of a couple of illegal actions that does not require the batter to be in the batter's box for me to call IP:
> Foreign substance
> Too many warm-ups
> F2 not returning ball to F1 with no runners on base

But not sure if i would bang:
> Double touch
> Taking plate with both hands together
With B out of BB, wouldn't we have a hand up holding up F1?

I think too many warmups and F2 not returning the ball to F1 are simply a ball called on the batter.

I've seen pitchers throw all kinds of weird ways during their 5 warmups [FP] that definitely would be IPs if we're in live ball situations. Doesn't matter in warmups.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

I can think of a couple of illegal actions that does not require the batter to be in the batter's box for me to call IP:
> Foreign substance
> Too many warm-ups
> F2 not returning ball to F1 with no runners on base

But not sure if i would bang:
> Double touch
> Taking plate with both hands together
With B out of BB, wouldn't we have a hand up holding up F1?

NFHS:
I don't think you can can call an IP for too many warm-up pitches.
Yes there is a penalty of a ball awarded to the batter, but it is not an illegal pitch (and no runners advance).

[tcannizzo]

Yes, I mis-stated.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

But not sure if i would bang:

> Taking plate with both hands together

Well, that is a point of contention with some. ASA 6FP.1.A specifically state that when taking the pitching position in contact with the PP, the pitcher must have their hands separated and must have the ball in either the glove or the pitcher hand.

Nothing about the position of the batter. Some believe this cannot be called until the pitcher actually makes a motion to pitch. However, there is no such provision in any of the rules, just that the pitcher cannot take the PP with her hands together.

The batter does not have to be in the BB for the pitcher to take the PP or take a signal or anything else as long as she doesn't start her motion to pitch.

With B out of BB, wouldn't we have a hand up holding up F1?

Not necessarily, do you always hold your hand up when there isn't any obvious action to pitch? However, even if it is, it does not preempt the pitcher's action to prepare for the pitch, it just mean she cannot pitch.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

But not sure if i would bang:
> Double touch

For the sake of conversation

On the "double touch"...

I'm not sure that would be an Illegal Pitch either, because........

As soon as she seperated her hands the first time (with the batter out of the box), you would have a Quick-pitch which is a dead ball and all subsequent action is cancelled - so the second touch didn't happen!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Rule books define the catcher's box as an 8.5 by 10 rectangle.

10 FEET!?!?! Really? Ten Feet front to back? Yeah ... I don't think so.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

For the sake of conversation

On the "double touch"...

I'm not sure that would be an Illegal Pitch either, because........

As soon as she seperated her hands the first time (with the batter out of the box), you would have a Quick-pitch which is a dead ball and all subsequent action is cancelled - so the second touch didn't happen!

Yes, but what about the pitcher who takes her position on the plate with hands together, waits for the batter, takes her signal, and then separates. I HAVE seen this - and have had a partner IP it.

[CecilOne]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne
Rule books define the catcher's box as an 8.5 by 10 rectangle.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

10 FEET!?!?! Really? Ten Feet front to back? Yeah ... I don't think so.

OK, college is only 7 feet, others are 10. The point was not the size, but that what matters is that it is a rectangle, not an irregular polygon.
To be a rectangle, all lines including the front line have to be straight lines from corner to corner.