Illegal Pitches???

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Tex

Thanks for the reply

NFHS
6-3-1 . . . The catcher shall be inside the lines of the catcher’s box when the
pitcher takes a position to pitch and when the pitch is released.
PENALTY: (Art. 1) An illegal pitch is called.

What about when the catcher is in front of the box (both feet)?

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

What about when the catcher is in front of the box (both feet)?

The box doesn't have a front.
Those lines are only the back edge of the batter's box.

[MrRabbit]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

The box doesn't have a front.
Those lines are only the back edge of the batter's box.

Please explain how the catchers box does not have a front line?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by MrRabbit

Please explain how the catchers box does not have a front line?

Every umpire manual I have read (ASA, NCAA, ISF and NFHS) states it is the catcher's option to move up past the back of the batter's box WITHOUT penalty, albeit at risk of obstruction (since the batter is entitled to use the entire box, including backing up at the pitch).

The illegal pitch penalty should only be assessed if the (idiot) catcher is to either side or behind the catcher's box at the time of the pitch, not to the front. Any umpire that chooses to penalize a catcher for doing a GOOD thing, and helping us see the ball at the plate, needs retraining or rethinking.

[MrRabbit]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Every umpire manual I have read (ASA, NCAA, ISF and NFHS) states it is the catcher's option to move up past the back of the batter's box WITHOUT penalty, albeit at risk of obstruction (since the batter is entitled to use the entire box, including backing up at the pitch).

The illegal pitch penalty should only be assessed if the (idiot) catcher is to either side or behind the catcher's box at the time of the pitch, not to the front. Any umpire that chooses to penalize a catcher for doing a GOOD thing, and helping us see the ball at the plate, needs retraining or rethinking.

Please give the rule that says that it is the catcher's option to move up past the back of the batter's box WITHOUT penalty before the pitcher releases the ball in fast pitch?

[RKBUmp]

I would have to argue the catchers box does in fact have a front line, as it is described in Rule 2-3-D as being 8.5' X 10' in dimensions and is also shown as that dimension on the field diagram.

But, with that being said, rule supplement 8 does state if the batter is forward in the box, the catcher may move forward without penalty.

[IRISHMAFIA]

RULE does state that the catcher may not be out of the box prior to the release of the pitch.

RS for FP makes an allowance that if the batter moves up to the front of the BB, the catcher may move closer to the plate. Please note, that means that the batter must be in the box and "set" before the catcher can move up. If not (and this is something I would do because I like playing mind games), I would always enter the BB in the front and then step back when the pitcher steps on the PP.

Personally, I don't care where the batter is and neither should the catcher. This allowance really doesn't make any sense since the pitcher should be throwing to the strike zone, not the batter. Yeah, I know the pitcher may try to fool the batter with a pitch that ends up in the dirt, but that is the battery's problem and shouldn't be supported with a special interpretation. But like I said, that is purely a personal opinion, not that of the rules.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

I would have to argue the catchers box does in fact have a front line, as it is described in Rule 2-3-D as being 8.5' X 10' in dimensions and is also shown as that dimension on the field diagram.

Not sure if I see that in the text of 2-3-D... Doesn't it actually state?

Catcher's Box
The catcher’s box shall be as wide as the two batter’s boxes from outside line to outside line, 8.5 feet wide for fast pitch and 10.5 feet wide for Slow Pitch and 16” Slow Pitch.

I have never seen a rectangle drawn to define the catcher's box. The most I have ever seen was three lines, left, right and back.

Rules Supplement: Catcher's Box
Catchers must remain in the catcher’s box until the pitch is released. The catcher may move closer to the plate without penalty when the batter is positioned in the front portion of the batter’s box during a pitch. However, the catcher must, at all times, still avoid catcher’s obstruction as the batter has the right to the entire batter’s box.

And while this sounds self-contradicting, it essentially means that IF there was a frontal boundary, it is to be ignored.; which translates to its non-existence, at least as an enforceable boundary.


The only reference to for F2 being too far forward which appears in multiple places in the Rules, RS and Umpire's Manual all say the same thing

Catcher's Obstruction:
3. The catcher steps on, or in front of home plate without the ball and prevents the batter from hitting the ball.

Here is where it gets interesting (at least for me) because I do not know the answer, and I enjoy these hypothetical, theoretical, TWP discussions.

Consider:

Section 5. DEFENSIVE POSITIONING.
A. The pitcher shall not deliver a pitch unless all available defensive players are positioned in fair territory, except the catcher who must be in the catcher’s box.

F2 is the only defensive player who is not required to be in fair territory.
But, is F2 required to be in foul territory?
Theoretically and TWP, with B is at the extreme fwd position in the batter's box it is possible for F2 to take a position in the opposite batter's box and be positioned in fair territory. Clearly at the risk of committing CO, or getting killed, but physically possible.

With the above references to CO caused by F2 being on, over or in front of HP, could it be that the enforceable frontal boundary of the CB be the Foul Lines?

I realize that this is "out there", but the board has been slow and we haven't had much trolling action lately. So humor me.

[pdm54]

Had a catcher set up outside the box once on an intentional walk.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

The box doesn't have a front.
Those lines are only the back edge of the batter's box.

Rule books define the catcher's box as an 8.5 by 10 rectangle.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Rule books define the catcher's box as an 8.5 by 10 rectangle.

10 FEET!?!?! Really? Ten Feet front to back? Yeah ... I don't think so.

[CecilOne]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne
Rule books define the catcher's box as an 8.5 by 10 rectangle.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

10 FEET!?!?! Really? Ten Feet front to back? Yeah ... I don't think so.

OK, college is only 7 feet, others are 10. The point was not the size, but that what matters is that it is a rectangle, not an irregular polygon.
To be a rectangle, all lines including the front line have to be straight lines from corner to corner.