Two situations

[SamG]

NSA rule set, 2 umpire mechanics.

1) R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd. Batter hits up to the gap between Left & Center field. Runners score, BR ends on 3rd. DC calls time, asks PU if he watched BR rounding 1st. PU says no. DC asks BU if he watched BR rounding 1st, BU says no. DC said he wanted to appeal B/R missing 1st base but since neither umpire was watching, he knew he couldn't. So who was responsible? PU said he was watching R1.

2) Bases loaded. 1 out. Pop up just outside the circle. F4 runs up and tries to catch the ball but is unsuccessful. That forces the runners and F4 makes the throw to F2 for an out. DC asks why IF wasn't called. Umpires say IF is only for 'routine' pop flies. True or False?

[derwil]

I'll take a shot:

In situation 1, you show one of the limitations of 2 man mechanics. While the BU is responsible for the touching of first, the were probably trying to get out of the way of the SS and/ or runner at second. The reality is that it is a stretch to see that play on first even if the BU was looking specifically for it due to the distance on the play. Bottom line is that it is the BU call but they won't can't make it the MAJORITY of the time. Even if they did make it, I believe it is a timing play and the runs still score........

Situation 2 - IF is for balls that can be caught with "normal effort", i.e. can of corn. If a defensive player can get under it for a split second you got an IF. If they "run up" to it as you have written, it's probably does not meet the definition of "normal effort" and should not have been called an IF. Since the defence only got the one out, I'm guessing this was a good call.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by derwil

I'll take a shot:

In situation 1, you show one of the limitations of 2 man mechanics. While the BU is responsible for the touching of first, the were probably trying to get out of the way of the SS and/ or runner at second. The reality is that it is a stretch to see that play on first even if the BU was looking specifically for it due to the distance on the play. Bottom line is that it is the BU call but they won't can't make it the MAJORITY of the time. Even if they did make it, I believe it is a timing play and the runs still score........

Situation 2 - IF is for balls that can be caught with "normal effort", i.e. can of corn. If a defensive player can get under it for a split second you got an IF. If they "run up" to it as you have written, it's probably does not meet the definition of "normal effort" and should not have been called an IF. Since the defence only got the one out, I'm guessing this was a good call.

Pretty good job of taking "a shot."

[SamG]

Thanks guys!

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by derwil

I'll take a shot:

In situation 1, you show one of the limitations of 2 man mechanics. While the BU is responsible for the touching of first, the were probably trying to get out of the way of the SS and/ or runner at second. The reality is that it is a stretch to see that play on first even if the BU was looking specifically for it due to the distance on the play. Bottom line is that it is the BU call but they won't can't make it the MAJORITY of the time. Even if they did make it, I believe it is a timing play and the runs still score........

I don't have an NSA rulebook any longer but most other rulesets, the runs would not score if the appeal was upheld that the batter missed first.

Rita

[PSUchem]

Originally Posted by Rita C

I don't have an NSA rulebook any longer but most other rulesets, the runs would not score if the appeal was upheld that the batter missed first.

Rita

^This. The batter runner missed a base to which he/she was forced. Therefore it is treated as a force out. No runs score.

[JefferMC]

Originally Posted by PSUchem

^This. The batter runner missed a base to which he/she was forced. Therefore it is treated as a force out. No runs score.

The intent is there, but technically this is not a force play. Yes, if the BR is put out prior to reaching 1B, "no run shall score," even on appeal.

[MD Longhorn]

Love how we're negating the runs without having any clue how many outs there were.

On a side note, if a coach asks you if you were watching a base, he should be asked to head back to the dugout. By no means do you answer this question. They can appeal, or not appeal. Then you rule.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Love how we're negating the runs without having any clue how many outs there were.

On a side note, if a coach asks you if you were watching a base, he should be asked to head back to the dugout. By no means do you answer this question. They can appeal, or not appeal. Then you rule.

My sentiments exactly.

MTD, Sr.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Love how we're negating the runs without having any clue how many outs there were.

On a side note, if a coach asks you if you were watching a base, he should be asked to head back to the dugout. By no means do you answer this question. They can appeal, or not appeal. Then you rule.

I was responding to the post that said it was a timing play. I didn't double check what the OP said. So now I have no clue as to why the poster I replied to would say what he did.

If there were two outs, he would have been wrong. With less than two, the runs score anyway.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Love how we're negating the runs without having any clue how many outs there were.

On a side note, if a coach asks you if you were watching a base, he should be asked to head back to the dugout. By no means do you answer this question. They can appeal, or not appeal. Then you rule.

Before I read Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s response, I was going to say....."My sentiments, exactly"!!

Now I'll just say, "I agree".

And I'll also add (relating to:
you show one of the limitations of 2 man mechanics. While the BU is responsible for the touching of first, the were probably trying to get out of the way of the SS and/ or runner at second. The reality is that it is a stretch to see that play on first even if the BU was looking specifically for it due to the distance on the play. Bottom line is that it is the BU call but they won't can't make it the MAJORITY of the time

that I don't see this as a particularl tough 2 man call..

R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd, ball hit to the gap (clean base hit)....
BU busts in to working area his primary job IS BR.... PU moves to working area, has an easy touch of the plate and is ready for play at 3rd.....

[celebur]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

that I don't see this as a particularl tough 2 man call..

R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd, ball hit to the gap (clean base hit)....
BU busts in to working area his primary job IS BR.... PU moves to working area, has an easy touch of the plate and is ready for play at 3rd.....

The actual wording in the OP is: R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd. Batter hits up to the gap between Left & Center field.

That may have been a clean base hit, or it may not have been. We don't know. It may have been a fly ball with a possibility of a diving catch, in which case BU needs to watch R2 for the tag up (if less than 2 outs). But if it was a clean hit, or if there were already 2 outs, then yes, I agree that the BR touching 1B shouldn't be a particularly tough thing to see. But the OP was too scant with information to draw conclusions.

[SamG]

Originally Posted by celebur

But the OP was too scant with information to draw conclusions.

Sorry, I try to give as much information as I think is needed. The hit was a clean base hit... line shot that ended up rolling to the fence. LF nor CF had a clean play on the ball. There were 2 outs IIRC.

[MD Longhorn]

The more I think about this, the more my "sidenote" actually bothers me. I can't imagine a coach asking me this. "Were you watching first base?" "Coach, I was umpiring, what is your question?" Telling the coach you were not is a horrible, horrible idea.

[SamG]

Originally Posted by celebur

But the OP was too scant with information to draw conclusions.

Sorry, I try to give as much information as I think is needed. The hit was a clean base hit... line shot that ended up rolling to the fence. LF nor CF had a clean play on the ball. There were 2 outs IIRC.