gps-8 - 2 situations

[crew]

this is a play that i have no idea what the correct answer is. please help with references NF/nc2a/nba it doesnt matter.

1. a1 drives to the basket takes 2 steps jumps and attempts a 2 handed dunk. a1 does not get up high enough to dunk but he pins the ball on the rim(does not let go) and comes to the floor with the ball.

2. similar play. a1 jumps to try a shot attempt from directly under the backboard. a1 gets the ball pinned to the bottom of the backboard(does not let go) and comes to the floor with the ball.

what would be the proper call in these 2 situations?

for college and nba consider the effect the play may have on the shot clock in situation #1.

[Slider]

Too easy, pivot lifted, returned to floor, ball wasn't released, traveling.

Now, you answer one (NFHS):

In-bounder A1 dribbles ball OOB. The ball's spin allows a portion of the ball to be across the in-bounds plane while returning to A1's hands. While returning to A1, the ball is touched by B1 on the IB side of the boundary plane. The ball still makes it to A1's hands, so A1 tosses a pass in-bounds to A2.

Legal throw-in by A1?

[Edited by Slider on Feb 4th, 2002 at 12:18 AM]

[DrakeM]

Agree. Traveling.
Once in the air, must pass or shoot.
Since it is a travel, shot clock reset.

[tharbert]

The clock should start as soon as the ball is touched legally by any player (A or B) inbounds. At that point, A1 will violate as soon as (s)he touches the ball while standing out of bounds. It's the same as B1 batting a legal throw-in back to A1 standing out of bounds. Good D.

This would happen so fast, many wouldn't catch it...

[Slider]

Originally posted by tharbert
The clock should start as soon as the ball is touched legally by any player (A or B) inbounds. At that point, A1 will violate as soon as (s)he touches the ball while standing out of bounds. It's the same as B1 batting a legal throw-in back to A1 standing out of bounds. Good D.

In-bounder A1 dribbles ball OOB. The ball's spin allows a portion of the ball to be across the in-bounds plane while returning to A1's hands. While returning to A1, the ball is touched by B1 on the IB side of the boundary plane. The ball still makes it to A1's hands, so A1 tosses a pass in-bounds to A2.

I agree it is good D; but I would think that the throw-in actually ended when B1 touched the ball. Therefore, throw-in violation by A1 (ball bounced OOB on throw-in).

Even if B1 had legally batted the ball into the bleachers (ball never touching A1 after the bat), then that is still a violation on A1 IMO.

[Edited by Slider on Feb 4th, 2002 at 10:46 AM]

[a.f.sports]

Originally posted by crew
this is a play that i have no idea what the correct answer is. please help with references NF/nc2a/nba it doesnt matter.

1. a1 drives to the basket takes 2 steps jumps and attempts a 2 handed dunk. a1 does not get up high enough to dunk but he pins the ball on the rim(does not let go) and comes to the floor with the ball.

2. similar play. a1 jumps to try a shot attempt from directly under the backboard. a1 gets the ball pinned to the bottom of the backboard(does not let go) and comes to the floor with the ball.

what would be the proper call in these 2 situations?

for college and nba consider the effect the play may have on the shot clock in situation #1.

NF - 4-40-2 states "a try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score 2 or 3 points by throwing the ball into a team's own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official's judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player's hand as a foul could prevent release of the ball."

If in the judgment of the official if was an attempt and the rim prevented the release of the ball would you still have a violation.

[inkwiziter]

Originally posted by a.f.sports
If in the judgment of the official if was an attempt and the rim prevented the release of the ball; would you still have a violation?

You are repeating the original question.

[physicsref]

How could this not be a shot attempt? What do you have to do to have an attempt? The player is obviously not attempting to dribble or pass as he clangs against the iron. Play on.

[inkwiziter]

Originally posted by physicsref
How could this not be a shot attempt? What do you have to do to have an attempt? The player is obviously not attempting to dribble or pass as he clangs against the iron. Play on.

I think you were trying to say it WAS an attempt.

It was an attempt, but the attempt was not prevented by an opponent, and the attempt was never RELEASED on a try. That is a travel.

[a.f.sports]

Originally posted by inkwiziter

I think you were trying to say it WAS an attempt.

It was an attempt, but the attempt was not prevented by an opponent, and the attempt was never RELEASED on a try. That is a travel.

An attempt was made, NF uses the example of a foul preventing release but the rule states it's not ESSENTIAL the ball be released. Since he was trying to put it thru his goal i agree with physicsref - play on.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by a.f.sports

An attempt was made, NF uses the example of a foul preventing release but the rule states it's not ESSENTIAL the ball be released. Since he was trying to put it thru his goal i agree with physicsref - play on.

I don't see the words "for example" in the NFHS wording -- I see the specific situation (foul) in which the ball doesn't leave the hand and it's still a try.

Let's consider a similar play: A1 jumps to try. B1 also jumps and puts his hand in the path A1 would shoot. A1 returns to the floor with the ball.

or, A1 jumps to try. A1 realizes that he's too far behind the backboard, so returns to the floor with the ball.

BOth of these are travelling, and so are the original situations crew posted.

I recently read these cases somewhere else (not a message board). I'll try to find the references.

[Dennis Flannery]

To answers crews question .... In example #1 I would no call this. In # 2 I would call a walk. The only reason for this is because of the rim aspect of the questions. I might be wrong, but in a college game this is what I would call.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Dennis Flannery
To answers crews question .... In example #1 I would no call this. In # 2 I would call a walk. The only reason for this is because of the rim aspect of the questions. I might be wrong, but in a college game this is what I would call.

I think in NF this is how I would call it, too. Although I might be wrong. In #2, I would argue that "surely it could not have been a shot by such a good player from such a bad postion." I'd be interested to hear what some other NF mavens such as DeNucci or Haire or Padgett say about #1.

[Mark Padgett]

First of all, Juulie, it's great to see you back in circulation. Still waiting for that email on that subject you mentioned about 2 weeks ago.

Now, as to situation one. Frankly, I had to think about this one. Yes, it's true the ball was never released (the NF terminology is "thrown") and that is part of the definition of a try. However, the NF also uses the theory that on a dunk, the player's hand can be touching the ball in the cylinder prior to release and it's not BI. Actually, I'm not sure my last statement there is relevant.

I think you can make a case there is a difference between a real try where the ball is thrown being short and the situation where the ball does not leave the shooter's hands and it is not because of a block by a defensive player.

Think of it this way. Is there any difference between the rim (or backboard, for that matter) preventing the release of the ball vs. a player just jumping, pushing the ball toward the hoop but never releasing it and then coming back down? You wouldn't rule the latter as a try because the ball was never released even though the shooter exhibited a shooting motion.

If I had to choose, I would say there's no difference. The latter is obviously traveling, so I would rule the former the same way.

Actually, I've never seen the rim stop a shot in that manner, but I think it would be cool to see.