When do you finally step in?

[greymule]

When your partner makes a terrible judgment call, you live with it unless he asks you for help. For example, I was once BU in a SP game, and the PU called a foul ball on a line drive that I could see, even from the 1B line, had landed a yard inside the LF line. After the offense begged him to appeal to me, he did, and I called it fair. Strange to do it that way, but we did get the call right, and nobody squawked very much. However, if he had said he was sure of the call—if he hadn't asked for help—then I would have said nothing even though I was absolutely sure he had blown it.

But let's say your partner misinterprets a rule, the offended team appeals to him to check with you, and he won't. Do you approach him and try to set things straight?

Suppose you were faced with the following situations that my partners have put me in over the years:

1. Partner allows runners to tag on an infield fly from the moment he called IF, not the moment of contact with the glove.

2. Partner calls a crash interference out on obviously inadvertent, mild contact after the ball has gone 50 feet from the play.

3. Partner calls interference on himself and bangs a runner out at 1B. "I made F4 throw around me," he says.

4. Partner calls a foul ball on a foul tip (bat to catcher's hand to chest protector to hand). Says to coach who objected, "It must go directly to the hand. Hits the hand and then the protector, it can't be a foul tip."

5. Partner awards "one and one" on an overthrow into DBT. "He was returning to 1B, so he gets 1B and 2B."

OK, these could go on and on, but at what point do we step in? Does it matter if the coaches simply accept whatever incorrect interpretation he makes? What if your partner won't appeal to you and the coach the approaches you directly and says, "You know that's wrong!"

[WestMichiganBlue]

Your partner or the game integrity. It seems to me that your priority should be to make the right call, especially if it is a correctable error (not a judgement call).

A couple years ago I had R1 at 2B, 2 outs. After pitched ball was returned to F1, R1 is slowly making way back to 2B. F1 raises her arm, R1 immediately stops and dances. BU, who is intently focused on R1 calls her out. R1 and defensive players leave field. Stunned, I am standing at home plate wondering what to do. Stop the exit of players? Quickly go talk to BU? Actually, I was hoping that the offensive coach would bail me out and raise the issue. But she didn't, and I let it go.

Later I broached the subject between innings; BU didn't even know that F1 faked a throw. He did even know that he should have been watching F1.

So some good came out of it; he learned something new. But if it happened again today, I think that I would quickly get to the BU, explain what I saw and ask if he wanted to change his call. If he said "no," only then would I let it go.
WMB

[oppool]

I am going to put some of my thoughts down and will let the experts come in to gave us the correct answers.

Things that would go into my decision if I was to get into a incorrect call by my partner in a game

1. Who my partner was and his experience. A veteren ump and the coaches are buying his ruling. I am keeping quiet and discussing with them the call later after the game. Rookie ump I would be more likely to try to pull them aside and discussed the play before further play

2. What type of game we are in? League play between last place teams a lot more chance I am going to keep quiet then a championship game, tournament game etc and wait for a later time to discuss

3. If I am the plate ump and any discussion of protest because of a ruling than my thoughts are diffently going to be entered into the discussion.

4. If a coach comes to me after my partner has made his decision not to ask for help and say "You know thats Wrong". Whether it was wrong or right I will not say anything to the coach he is talking to the wrong ump. Depending on the situation again I might try to pull the partner away to discuss the play if I am sure he is wrong on a rule call

5. Never get into judgement discussion unless appeal to by the partner. No matter what...


JMOs

Don

[gsf23]

I'm interested in know what you did with the runners after your partner calls a ball foul and then you come in on appeal and say that it is fair? I don't know, even though he was wrong I think you might just have to stick with the original call.

In the situations above, if you know for sure the ruling is incorrect, I would call time, call my partner over and ask him what his ruling was, maybe he saw something I didn't. If I still feel he is incorrect then I would tell him what I feel the ruling should be and why? If he is still hard headed and doesn't want to chnage it, the I would probably just let it stand and call our UIC and let him handle it after that.

I had a situation with one umpire. I was on the bases, he was on the plate. Batter hits a foul ball that goes up and back, hits the top of the backstop and the catcher catches it on the way down. The PU calls the batter out. I waited a second cause I couldn't believe what I heard, and he said it again, batter is out. Well of course the batter is going nuts and so I go over, ask him what he ruled. He said out on the catch. I asked if he saw the ball hit the backstop, I was hoping that he didn't, but he said that he saw it. I then told him that if the ball hit the backstop that it was dead and cannot be caught for an out. He asked if that was right, I said yes and he changed the call. Now if he would have insisted that the batter was out. I would have let it go after I tried to convince him, and them called our UIC after and had him taken off the list.

If they won't change it on the field I think you just need to let it go and then call the guys above and let them handle him. This would only apply to rules interpretations, not judgement calls.

[ntxblue]

Good subject!

Judgement call - nothing unless partner asks (in reference to a pulled foot, bad angle, etc.) Otherwise, bad judgement is just bad judgement.

Rule interpretation - make sure "We" get it right before proceding

[ChampaignBlue]

I look at it this way, we are a team and for us winning is getting the job done right. That said if a partner makes a protestable call we'll be having a quiet chat at the end of which he'll be announcing the final ruling. Never have I heard a team complain because of excessive umpire conferances but I have heard them complain about not enough. I'm not going out to show up my partner, heck I might go out even if I agree to begin with just to make the teams see that we really do care about getting it right. If it's a judgement call I will almost always wait for my partner to come to me for help.
I say almost because in the 3000+ games that I've called I have only once gone out on a judgement call before being asked. I was PU for a mens A/AA league game. On a double play ball the throw to 1st was a little off line and the 1st baseman juggled the ball away from my partner where he couldn't possibly see the juggle and banged out the BR. Now I've come up the line to watch for pulled foot and saw the obvious juggle along with the BR and everyone in his, the 1st base, dugout. My partner was very experienced but has a short fuse and the BR also had a rep for a short fuse. I tried to let everyone know that I had seen the juggle but I was too late to save the BR, he was gone before I got there but our discussion with the coach was a short one. "Coach, you know he's gotta go when he says what he did, he's gone but not out. Put in a sub and maybe next time he'll wait until the dust settles before he tosses himself out again." Jim

[WestMichiganBlue]

It appears the consensus is moving towards the "get it right" position. In FED ball we have less options. We can't call in the UIC (don't have one unless it is the end of the season State Tournament); and in some states (ie. Michigan) we do not allow protests. You have to get it right - at game time.

Normally, a player or coach is calling attention to the issue. So we have time out, and time for umpire conferences. This may be the place for the Chief Umpire to invoke his responsibility to make the final call - if the two umpires can not agree.

My question to all: What if no one complains? Maybe the coach isn't quite sure of the correct rule and decides to keep quiet. But you know that an error has been made - and one the teams is being unfairly penalized because of the error. Do you speak up?
WMB

[Del-Blue]

Ok, I'll add my $.05.

It is time for the coaches to pay attention to what is going on during the game.

At no time would I over rule a partner without first being asked. The coach has many tools available to him/her if he/she thinks an umpire has not made the right call, The first is to approach it in a civil way, If the coaches would get this through their head, they would have a better chance to get a discussion between me and my partner.If you are sure you made the right call, why bother going to your partner?? If I go to my partner with a call I am not going to change, now the coach thinks you both can't see. I never have a problem going to my partner if I can question my call.

If the coach doesn't question a call, it doesn't even get a discussion even if I know my partner blew it big time. I will discuss it with him after the game, but not during it.

Bottom line: If asked and I think I may not have it right, I will go to my partner. If not asked, we play on.

Bob

[Panda Bear]

Glad this is getting discussion. I brought the same thing up a few weeks back, (What to do about wrong calls? 1/7/03) and the responses were fewer. Whiskers misread when I said I watched it from behind home plate that I was only a spectator (that is the view of the plate ump of base calls). But his response did point out ASA bans unsolicited intervention. I don't work ASA, but I am concerned about this concept, believing instead in getting it right if possible.

Several posts suggest an impact analysis (last place vs a playoff game), and I agree to a point. Also, as noted, IF you know the other umps / coaches / players it can sometimes be easier to work it out. My mental dilema was that I didn't know them.

Let me explain that I said I agree to a point. I work with mostly kids & limited experience coaches (LL all levels & school), and at least our LL emphasizes learning. A problem I see in several sports is calls (even right ones) that aren't understood by players and coaches, confused further by inconsistent calls, so how are they supposed to learn? Yes, they should all read the rule book and attend clinics. If everyone knew the rules half as well as Mr. Rowe, for example, we would all have a lot less grief. But if we, as experienced umps that do these things still struggle with some of these calls, how are they supposed to figure it out?

I hope that more umps will tend to look for help when you have the luxury of a 2 or 3 person crew, and I would like to encourage talking (calmly, professionally, of course) with coaches and players in some circumstances so that we teach as well as officiate, and sometimes learn something too.

Good discussion!

[IRISHMAFIA]

I'm with Bob on this one. At some point, the players and coaches have some responsibility to know what they are supposed to do. No matter how bad the call is, judgement or otherwise, my partner is going to have to ask for help. That doesn't mean I ignore him/her, it means I do not intervene without an invitation. I will approach any discussion in which my partner is taking place as protecting him/her during a discussion is part of our job. I will attempt to make eye contact and give him/her a "come hither" look, nod or other bodily movement to indicate that I would like to have a word with them.

If I'm approached by an offended player or coach, I will explicitly tell them that I cannot comment on the play, that my partner must come to me. I use a multitude of lines that do everything, but instruct them on the proper way to handle the situation.

If the team is that dense they cannot pick up on the indicators or do not know what to do, then I make no further effort to intervene. I will do everything I can short of stopping the game and tell my partner s/he kicked the call. I will do nothing which may embarrass my partner as none of us (who have all kicked a call at some point in our careers, more early on than now, hopefully) would want our partner to do that to us.

I have learned in the past few years that when I am having a conversation with my partner, not to be afraid to lend some body language to a conversation including pointing to the area of a play to give the impression that there may have been more possibilities than the obvious. Part of our jobs as partners is to help and teach and if that means doing whatever I can to not embarrass them, I will. The one thing I will not do is call someone and request my partner be red-lined.

These are little things we should all be learning. A couple of years ago, an umpire attempted to DQ a bat for dents. Problem was that it still fit through the ring and there was no major damage to the bat. When presented to me as the UIC, I just openly blurted that if the only problem with the bat is dents and it passes through the ring, he needs to allow it. As an afterthought, I realized that I should have had a private conversation with the umpire before having him return the bat to the team to use in that game. I'm sure that would have made the umpire feel a bit more comfortable and that the team would not see the change of decision in a negative way. Like I said, little things.

[Buck912]

Well, I was hoping to stay outta this one but it looks like I can't resist the temptation. I agree with most of everything I've read so far, with maybe a small exception.
Bob, in your reply about not discussing a call if not asked by a coach. Are you talking about a judgment call or possible rule application or interpretation? In my opinion, if it involves a rule and one of us knows the correct application and our partner does not, then it needs to be discussed and applied correctly, with or without being requested by a coach. It can only save us a little heartburn at a later date. Let me give an example. Let's say a coach asks your partner "can the same courtesy runner run for the pitcher and catcher?" In Federation the answer is no, the same runner can not run for both. However, your partner answers "yes" to the coach. If you know this is an incorrect application of the rule, would you allow it if your partner doesn't ask your help? If you do allow it, what happens the next time you have that same team in a different game, with a different partner and then you apply the rule correctly? If I misunderstood what you meant, please correct me. If my opinion is wrong, I'm sure I'll be hearing it from some of you guys........

[gsf23]

I agree with Buck here. If your partner is not applying the correct rule or interpreting it the wrong way, that needs to be corrected, whether the teams know the right rule or not. If you don't, then it will make you BOTH look bad, not just your partner.

Just like Buck said, if you let an incorrect ruling stand, then have the same team, and the same rule and then use the right ruling, you are opening yourself up for a big argument. What are you going to say, "Well, I knew what the right ruling was, but my partner didn't ask for help so nothing I could do, but now we are doing it right." Not very good officiating in my opinion.

I hear officials here all the time complaining about how the coaches and players don't know the rules. Personally, I would not let an incorrect ruling stand regardless of whether the teams know the rule or not. How are they going to learn if we don't apply the correct rulings every time.

[Dakota]

First, as we all know, game management is an essential part of calling the game. Game management suffers when you or your partner look bad. Game management suffers if you allow your "get it right" impulse to cause you to barge in uninvited to overrule your partner.

In the situation of the coach asking in advance for a ruling on courtesy runners, that is not the same thing, IMO, as making a call during live action. You can usually find a diplomatic way to get the correct information to the coach and giving your partner a face-saving out. Preferably, give your partner the info and let him correct his own statement.

Anyhow, don't so easily reject the practice (requirement for ASA) that you cannot overrule your partner; he must ask for your input and then make his own decision. Otherwise, game management suffers.

Work out in your pregame the hand/face/body signals you will be using to indicate that your partner should be asking for your help - that you saw something that he didn't or that you ruling would have been different. Then rely on him to take advantage of them.

[blue]

I'm still trying to figure out the original post. How can an umpire, with or without being asked, overturn a "foul ball"? Once the ball is called foul, the ball becomes dead and all action ceases.

[Striker991]

Herein lies my confusion with the first post. I haven't been at this very long, but it has always been my opinion that "foul" was the one call that couldn't be reversed, because once called, the ball is dead and play is stopped. As someone else asked, where would you place the runners?