umpire-catcher courtesies

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Andy

When the coach asks where the pitch missed, and the catcher shrugs her shoulders, that is telling everybody that is watching that she (F2) thought it was a strike and the umpire missed it. It's going toward the direction of showing up the umpire.

While I think that's an insane over-reaction... let's say you're right. What exactly should catcher say to her coach when you fail to call a strike on a pitch she thought was in the zone so as to not show you up?

[MDUmp]

The full story...guess I should have added this from the start...
This was a point in the game where Maryland had a comfortable lead and brought in their 3rd pitcher to complete the game. She walked the first two batters on close pitches. The crowd was getting on the blue.

I also should add, this was a pretty demonstrative shrug by the catcher.

I don't know if the umpire cleaned off the plate for this reason, but it sure seemed like it from where I was sitting. I will say she didn't shrug anymore.

[LIUmp]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

While I think that's an insane over-reaction... let's say you're right. What exactly should catcher say to her coach when you fail to call a strike on a pitch she thought was in the zone so as to not show you up?

How about repeating what the coach asked, politely. "Blue, where did that pitch miss?"

I'm not saying I disagree with you mb...I am the umpire, not the play by play announcer. I am not there to say "inside", "low", etc. And I don't think it's showing up the umpire when she shrugs her shoulders if we're talking about 12U, 14U, etc. But 18U and college, and even some 16U and varsity catchers, shrugging their shoulders is a way of saying they didn't agree. If she shrugs, you bet that the coach will then ask you. And that is when you can tell the coach and the catcher where the pitch missed. The first and ONLY time I will do it. If it happens again, I would put an end to it fast. Showing up or not, I'm not going to describe the pitches. If I call a ball, it's NOT a strike. That simple.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

While I think that's an insane over-reaction... let's say you're right. What exactly should catcher say to her coach when you fail to call a strike on a pitch she thought was in the zone so as to not show you up?

I think I answered that question - if s/he doesn't know, s/he should ask. I will answer..."low", "inside", whatever...she can then relay that info to coach.

If it was a strike and I missed it...see above.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Andy

I think I answered that question - if s/he doesn't know, s/he should ask. I will answer..."low", "inside", whatever...she can then relay that info to coach.

If it was a strike and I missed it...see above.

I guess I'm not understanding how she's showing you up by telling coach she doesn't know why it wasn't a strike... but it's perfectly ok for her to show the word that she didn't know why it wasn't a strike by asking you and then relaying. What's not clicking for me is why this is "showing you up".

I grant you that if coach reacted to this information, I could see your point. I just don't think this catcher is doing anything other than answering he coach's question, and not getting why you, personally (and singularly based on the lack of support here), feel this is taboo.

[topper]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I guess I'm not understanding how she's showing you up by telling coach she doesn't know why it wasn't a strike... but it's perfectly ok for her to show the word that she didn't know why it wasn't a strike by asking you and then relaying. What's not clicking for me is why this is "showing you up".

I grant you that if coach reacted to this information, I could see your point. I just don't think this catcher is doing anything other than answering he coach's question, and not getting why you, personally (and singularly based on the lack of support here), feel this is taboo.

If you read a little closer, you would see that there is support for his position. Not that it should faze him if there wasn't. Everyone else could be dead wrong.

You can call it "insane" if you like, but this is not that uncommon at this level and neither is this umpire's reaction.

[Andy]

LIblueASA covered it pretty well...it's not that she is saying she doesn't know, it's the way it is being said. Shrugging the shoulders is a visible reaction to the coach's question that could be interpreted by anybody watching that she doesn't agree with my call and she is letting eveybody know.

I didn't say that the act of her shrugging her shoulders is showing me up, I said that the act is starting down that path. The quick conversation of her asking where the pitch missed and my replying is heard only between the two of us, nobody knows, she relays the information to her coach, we move on.

The umpire in question that started this part of the discussion chose to react to the shoulder shrug in a very obvious manner. I don't know that I would choose the same path. But, I would at least say something to the catcher to let her know that her actions were inappropriate and needed to cease.

And...thanks for keeping the discussion civil! One of the things I like most about this board!

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Andy

LIblueASA covered it pretty well...it's not that she is saying she doesn't know, it's the way it is being said. Shrugging the shoulders is a visible reaction to the coach's question that could be interpreted by anybody watching that she doesn't agree with my call and she is letting eveybody know.

I didn't say that the act of her shrugging her shoulders is showing me up, I said that the act is starting down that path. The quick conversation of her asking where the pitch missed and my replying is heard only between the two of us, nobody knows, she relays the information to her coach, we move on.

The umpire in question that started this part of the discussion chose to react to the shoulder shrug in a very obvious manner. I don't know that I would choose the same path. But, I would at least say something to the catcher to let her know that her actions were inappropriate and needed to cease.

And...thanks for keeping the discussion civil! One of the things I like most about this board!

Would you apply the same thing on a close play at third? You call out. Coach believes the runner was safe. He shrugs his shoulders in frustration and gives the 1st base coach a look across the diamond. Is it time to clean 3rd base? And how is that showing you his disagreement less of a visible showing up then when he calls time, walks over to you, says she was on the bag long before the tag and then politely goes back to his position?

[Andy]

Originally Posted by youngump

Would you apply the same thing on a close play at third? You call out. Coach believes the runner was safe. He shrugs his shoulders in frustration and gives the 1st base coach a look across the diamond. Is it time to clean 3rd base? And how is that showing you his disagreement less of a visible showing up then when he calls time, walks over to you, says she was on the bag long before the tag and then politely goes back to his position?

This thread has certainly taken a left turn from the original posting.....

A play at third base is a different animal....the play happens, umpire calls it, coach expresses dissatisfaction with the call, umpire deals with that, we move on. We may not have another close play on the bases for several more batters.

We have a pitch to start every play. A catcher shrugging her shoulders in response to her coach could be interpreted as her disagreement with the PU's pitch call and it could lead down the path of attempting to show up the umpire. I think I have said this twice before, so one more time may or may not help make my point. Since we have a pitch to start every play, if the catcher, and/or the coach, starts thinking that the umpires strike zone is terrible, they now have something to complain about almost constantly. The situation can only go downhill from there.

As I stated in my previous post..the umpire in question that started this part of the discussion chose to react to the shoulder shrug in a very obvious manner and deal with it early, if in fact, that was the crux of the conversation.

Frankly, I'm surprised at some of the discussion in this post....I have always been told not to let anyone get too far with questioning the strike zone..whether they are doing it openly or not.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by topper

If you read a little closer, you would see that there is support for his position. Not that it should faze him if there wasn't. Everyone else could be dead wrong.

You can call it "insane" if you like, but this is not that uncommon at this level and neither is this umpire's reaction.

Maybe insane was strong... however, I only know one umpire "at this level" that would react this way (and yes, he's an old-school umpire). I can't tell you how many times we (him included) have been told at clinics, meetings, etc that when it's not 100% clear whether we're being "disrespected" or not - to err on the side of ignoring it. This isn't 1990, and we're not getting MLB bucks to be part of the show. Reacting in the way described seems A) inconsistent with the way one might react to players disagreeing with calls elsewhere and B) a bit over the top and unnecessary - of the "I'm in charge here, you will behave as I tell you." variety.)

[topper]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Maybe insane was strong... however, I only know one umpire "at this level" that would react this way (and yes, he's an old-school umpire).

Please define "old-school" for me.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I can't tell you how many times we (him included) have been told at clinics, meetings, etc that when it's not 100% clear whether we're being "disrespected" or not - to err on the side of ignoring it.

Who is telling you these things?

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

This isn't 1990, and we're not getting MLB bucks to be part of the show. Reacting in the way described seems A) inconsistent with the way one might react to players disagreeing with calls elsewhere and B) a bit over the top and unnecessary - of the "I'm in charge here, you will behave as I tell you." variety.)

What happened in 1990? I truly don't know.

As to A), it is perfectly consistent with the way one might react to players disagreeing by obviously letting anyone watching know that they think an umpire missed a call.

You may handle these situations as you see fit, but it's often the next official that has to deal with your enabling this behavior.

[MD Longhorn]

LOL. Ok - we can agree to disagree. If I'm a shrug enabler, so be it.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by topper

Please define "old-school" for me....

Where I went to school...

[ASA/NYSSOBLUE]

Originally Posted by topper

Please define "old-school" for me.


Who is telling you these things?


What happened in 1990? I truly don't know.

As to A), it is perfectly consistent with the way one might react to players disagreeing by obviously letting anyone watching know that they think an umpire missed a call.

You may handle these situations as you see fit, but it's often the next official that has to deal with your enabling this behavior.

I think Crowder was refering to the idea our mechanics and behavior are more 'professional' now than 20 years ago.

HOWEVER...there is a apocryphal MLB story from the early 80s along these lines involving Gary Carter when he was with the Expos, and (I believe) Eric Gregg (or possibly Weyer), where Gregg is working the plate, and the Expo manager, who was Gene Mauch at the time, keeps asking where pitches were, and Carter not saying anything - as he should. However Gregg keeps getting funny looks from the opposition batters. In between innings, Gregg's partner at 1B, runs in and tells Gregg that Carter is giving high/low hand signals. Carter is leading off the next inning, and Gregg tells the other C to have his pitcher to bounce the first pitch to Carter. The pitcher does so, and Gregg calls it a strike - causing Carter to almost drop his bat in surprise, asking, "Where was THAT??", whereupon Gregg holds his hand at waist level. End of the hand signals.....