umpire-catcher courtesies

[Andy]

When the coach asks where the pitch missed, and the catcher shrugs her shoulders, that is telling everybody that is watching that she (F2) thought it was a strike and the umpire missed it. It's going toward the direction of showing up the umpire.

I don't know that I would be so obvious as to brush a clean plate, but I would say to the catcher, "If you don't know where it missed, ask..I'll tell you."

If I did miss the pitch (it happened once ), I will say, "Sorry catch, I missed it." I will say this loud enough for the catcher and the batter to hear.

What some coaches and players don't seem to realize is that I want to call strikes...gets the ball in play, keeps the game moving and everybody interested

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Andy

When the coach asks where the pitch missed, and the catcher shrugs her shoulders, that is telling everybody that is watching that she (F2) thought it was a strike and the umpire missed it. It's going toward the direction of showing up the umpire.

While I think that's an insane over-reaction... let's say you're right. What exactly should catcher say to her coach when you fail to call a strike on a pitch she thought was in the zone so as to not show you up?

[MDUmp]

The full story...guess I should have added this from the start...
This was a point in the game where Maryland had a comfortable lead and brought in their 3rd pitcher to complete the game. She walked the first two batters on close pitches. The crowd was getting on the blue.

I also should add, this was a pretty demonstrative shrug by the catcher.

I don't know if the umpire cleaned off the plate for this reason, but it sure seemed like it from where I was sitting. I will say she didn't shrug anymore.

[LIUmp]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

While I think that's an insane over-reaction... let's say you're right. What exactly should catcher say to her coach when you fail to call a strike on a pitch she thought was in the zone so as to not show you up?

How about repeating what the coach asked, politely. "Blue, where did that pitch miss?"

I'm not saying I disagree with you mb...I am the umpire, not the play by play announcer. I am not there to say "inside", "low", etc. And I don't think it's showing up the umpire when she shrugs her shoulders if we're talking about 12U, 14U, etc. But 18U and college, and even some 16U and varsity catchers, shrugging their shoulders is a way of saying they didn't agree. If she shrugs, you bet that the coach will then ask you. And that is when you can tell the coach and the catcher where the pitch missed. The first and ONLY time I will do it. If it happens again, I would put an end to it fast. Showing up or not, I'm not going to describe the pitches. If I call a ball, it's NOT a strike. That simple.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

While I think that's an insane over-reaction... let's say you're right. What exactly should catcher say to her coach when you fail to call a strike on a pitch she thought was in the zone so as to not show you up?

I think I answered that question - if s/he doesn't know, s/he should ask. I will answer..."low", "inside", whatever...she can then relay that info to coach.

If it was a strike and I missed it...see above.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Andy

I think I answered that question - if s/he doesn't know, s/he should ask. I will answer..."low", "inside", whatever...she can then relay that info to coach.

If it was a strike and I missed it...see above.

I guess I'm not understanding how she's showing you up by telling coach she doesn't know why it wasn't a strike... but it's perfectly ok for her to show the word that she didn't know why it wasn't a strike by asking you and then relaying. What's not clicking for me is why this is "showing you up".

I grant you that if coach reacted to this information, I could see your point. I just don't think this catcher is doing anything other than answering he coach's question, and not getting why you, personally (and singularly based on the lack of support here), feel this is taboo.

[topper]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I guess I'm not understanding how she's showing you up by telling coach she doesn't know why it wasn't a strike... but it's perfectly ok for her to show the word that she didn't know why it wasn't a strike by asking you and then relaying. What's not clicking for me is why this is "showing you up".

I grant you that if coach reacted to this information, I could see your point. I just don't think this catcher is doing anything other than answering he coach's question, and not getting why you, personally (and singularly based on the lack of support here), feel this is taboo.

If you read a little closer, you would see that there is support for his position. Not that it should faze him if there wasn't. Everyone else could be dead wrong.

You can call it "insane" if you like, but this is not that uncommon at this level and neither is this umpire's reaction.

[Andy]

LIblueASA covered it pretty well...it's not that she is saying she doesn't know, it's the way it is being said. Shrugging the shoulders is a visible reaction to the coach's question that could be interpreted by anybody watching that she doesn't agree with my call and she is letting eveybody know.

I didn't say that the act of her shrugging her shoulders is showing me up, I said that the act is starting down that path. The quick conversation of her asking where the pitch missed and my replying is heard only between the two of us, nobody knows, she relays the information to her coach, we move on.

The umpire in question that started this part of the discussion chose to react to the shoulder shrug in a very obvious manner. I don't know that I would choose the same path. But, I would at least say something to the catcher to let her know that her actions were inappropriate and needed to cease.

And...thanks for keeping the discussion civil! One of the things I like most about this board!

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Andy

LIblueASA covered it pretty well...it's not that she is saying she doesn't know, it's the way it is being said. Shrugging the shoulders is a visible reaction to the coach's question that could be interpreted by anybody watching that she doesn't agree with my call and she is letting eveybody know.

I didn't say that the act of her shrugging her shoulders is showing me up, I said that the act is starting down that path. The quick conversation of her asking where the pitch missed and my replying is heard only between the two of us, nobody knows, she relays the information to her coach, we move on.

The umpire in question that started this part of the discussion chose to react to the shoulder shrug in a very obvious manner. I don't know that I would choose the same path. But, I would at least say something to the catcher to let her know that her actions were inappropriate and needed to cease.

And...thanks for keeping the discussion civil! One of the things I like most about this board!

Would you apply the same thing on a close play at third? You call out. Coach believes the runner was safe. He shrugs his shoulders in frustration and gives the 1st base coach a look across the diamond. Is it time to clean 3rd base? And how is that showing you his disagreement less of a visible showing up then when he calls time, walks over to you, says she was on the bag long before the tag and then politely goes back to his position?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by topper

If you read a little closer, you would see that there is support for his position. Not that it should faze him if there wasn't. Everyone else could be dead wrong.

You can call it "insane" if you like, but this is not that uncommon at this level and neither is this umpire's reaction.

Maybe insane was strong... however, I only know one umpire "at this level" that would react this way (and yes, he's an old-school umpire). I can't tell you how many times we (him included) have been told at clinics, meetings, etc that when it's not 100% clear whether we're being "disrespected" or not - to err on the side of ignoring it. This isn't 1990, and we're not getting MLB bucks to be part of the show. Reacting in the way described seems A) inconsistent with the way one might react to players disagreeing with calls elsewhere and B) a bit over the top and unnecessary - of the "I'm in charge here, you will behave as I tell you." variety.)

[topper]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Maybe insane was strong... however, I only know one umpire "at this level" that would react this way (and yes, he's an old-school umpire).

Please define "old-school" for me.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I can't tell you how many times we (him included) have been told at clinics, meetings, etc that when it's not 100% clear whether we're being "disrespected" or not - to err on the side of ignoring it.

Who is telling you these things?

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

This isn't 1990, and we're not getting MLB bucks to be part of the show. Reacting in the way described seems A) inconsistent with the way one might react to players disagreeing with calls elsewhere and B) a bit over the top and unnecessary - of the "I'm in charge here, you will behave as I tell you." variety.)

What happened in 1990? I truly don't know.

As to A), it is perfectly consistent with the way one might react to players disagreeing by obviously letting anyone watching know that they think an umpire missed a call.

You may handle these situations as you see fit, but it's often the next official that has to deal with your enabling this behavior.