batting out of order...or ....

[LIUmp]

Originally Posted by PSUchem

Everyone is forgetting a very important detail. The groundout by the improper batter was the third out of the inning. In ASA, thou shalt not call a fourth out unless it is an appeal on a runner who has scored. Unlike NCAA, there is no stipulation for allowing an appeal on BOO as a fourth out. Without being able to appeal, B2's second at-bat must stand, and B3 will lead off next inning.

This is a major loophole in the ASA rules, and I have brought it to the attention of numerous "higher-ups," with no clear answer.

Situation #2: 2 outs, B6 is due up to bat. Instead, B9 comes to bat and grounds out. 3 outs. Without being able to appeal, B9's at-bat is legal. B1 leads off next inning. You have just effectively skipped the bottom of the order.

Wait - that makes no sense! If that were the case, then a coach can send his number 2 batter up to bat any time there are two outs and have her hit a pitch while she was standing on home plate for the third out JUST so he can send his number 3 batter up to the plate in the next inning - presuming they don't get caught of course.

[PSUchem]

Originally Posted by LIBlueASA

Wait - that makes no sense! If that were the case, then a coach can send his number 2 batter up to bat any time there are two outs and have her hit a pitch while she was standing on home plate for the third out JUST so he can send his number 3 batter up to the plate in the next inning - presuming they don't get caught of course.

Exactly. But, try to find support in the rules for calling that 4th out on a BOO. It just isn't there, beyond applying the "God" rule (10-1) at your personal discretion. It appears this is the only time where it would be advantageous for the defensive coach to call attention to the BOO during the at bat.

NCAA has this covered:

A.R. 7.1.3.2: Bottom of the seventh inning, two outs, tie score. The batter in the sixth spot in the batting order (average hitter but slow runner) is scheduled to bat, but the coach sends the batter in the ninth spot (fastest runner on the team) to the plate with instructions to strike out for the third out. The defensive coach notices batting out of order, but waits to see the result of her turn at bat. RULING: Even though the defense got the strikeout as the third out, they may appeal batting out of order to correct the batting order for the eighth inning when the tiebreaker was to begin.

[LIUmp]

So...you're saying I was incorrect with having batter number 4 come up?

[PSUchem]

Originally Posted by LIBlueASA

So...you're saying I was incorrect with having batter number 4 come up?

Due to this technicality, yes. If there had been less than 2 outs, then your ruling would have been correct. (And, as you can see, most on this board, without realizing this technicality, would have ruled the same.) I would welcome discussion otherwise from others on the board.

It comes down to two things:
1) Honor the appeal. B3 is out for failing to bat. B4 due up next inning. But, IMO, this is not supported by rule as this would be the 4th out.
2) Do not honor the appeal, due to (1). B2's at bat is legal, and B3 is due up.

Do you honor the appeal?

[LIUmp]

Originally Posted by PSUchem

Exactly. But, try to find support in the rules for calling that 4th out on a BOO. It just isn't there, beyond applying the "God" rule (10-1) at your personal discretion. It appears this is the only time where it would be advantageous for the defensive coach to call attention to the BOO during the at bat.

You mean rule 10-3-C. 10-1 talks about the power and duties of the umpire.


I was not looking to call, not did we call a fourth out on the play. The batter who hit twice, B2 in the lineup, grounded out for out 3. The coach then told the plate umpire that she batted again and that the offense batted out of order. The coach asks for his appeal - he even had his catcher say it to the PU. The appeal was proper and legal. Since we had a 3rd out, we will not get an additional out, but we do have to make sure that the correct batter comes up in the next half inning. I believe that correct batter is B4.

[PSUchem]

Originally Posted by LIBlueASA

You mean rule 10-3-C. 10-1 talks about the power and duties of the umpire.


I was not looking to call, not did we call a fourth out on the play. The batter who hit twice, B2 in the lineup, grounded out for out 3. The coach then told the plate umpire that she batted again and that the offense batted out of order. The coach asks for his appeal - he even had his catcher say it to the PU. The appeal was proper and legal. Since we had a 3rd out, we will not get an additional out, but we do have to make sure that the correct batter comes up in the next half inning. I believe that correct batter is B4.

No, I meant what I said. 10-3-C talks about an umpire who reverses a call and puts a team in jeopardy. 10-1 mentions "They have the power to order a player, coach, captain or manager to carry out or to omit any act which, in their judgment is necessary to give force and effect to one or all of these rules..."

So you are saying you can appeal BOO and not call an out? That's not possible. You either appeal for the out or you don't. You can't pick which half of the "EFFECT" you want, IMO.

[LIUmp]

The defensive team forfeits its right to appeal BOO when a legal or illegal pitch has been made to the following batter (this did not happen due to the third out of the inning) or when the pitcher and all infielders have clearly vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory on their way to the dugout or bench. (No, this did not happen either).

So the defense has the right to appeal BOO in this situation in the OP.

Next issue...

If the error is discovered AFTER the incorrect batter has completed a turn at bat (check) and before a legal or illegal pitch has been made to the following batter (can't happen in my case) or before the pitcher and all infielders have clearly vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory on their way to the dugout or bench area (THIS DID HAPPEN),

EFFECT(S)
a. The player who should have batted (B3 in my OP) is OUT. (But we already have 3 outs so now what?)

b. Any advance or score made by the improper batter shall be nullified (ground out...no advance, no anything, it was the third out so no problems there) Any out that is made prior to discovering this infraction remains an OUT. (so her ground out remains out NUMBER 3. Check.)

c. The next batter is the player whose name follows that of the player who was called out for failing to bat. (Player failing to bat was B3, so isn't that B4?)

d. If the batter declared out under these circumstances is the third out, the correct batter in the next inning shall be the batter who would have come to bat had the player been put out under ordinary play. (what? We already had 3 outs, so she was not declared the third out under these circumstances.)

I am NOT choosing which half of the effect I want. I was following the rule to the letter. I still don't see where B3 comes to bat.

I do see your argument, but I guess my real question here is....does it change the way the rule is interpreted when you have three outs? I think we all agree that if there was only one out and the improper batter grounded out for out number 2 and then the defense properly appealed BOO, we would declare B3 out, and it would be the third out and B4 would bat. Also, if there were no outs and the same thing happened, we would call B3 out for BOO, keep the out for the ground out of B2, and have B4 come up to bat. So why would this be different since it was the third out?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by PSUchem

No, I meant what I said. 10-3-C talks about an umpire who reverses a call and puts a team in jeopardy. 10-1 mentions "They have the power to order a player, coach, captain or manager to carry out or to omit any act which, in their judgment is necessary to give force and effect to one or all of these rules..."

So you are saying you can appeal BOO and not call an out? That's not possible. You either appeal for the out or you don't. You can't pick which half of the "EFFECT" you want, IMO.

My opinion; not an official ASA ruling or case play, as I don't have that authority. But, I do have some insight from the ASA Rules Committee (former member).

In the case you are discussing, IF a proper appeal was made for BOO, I WOULD honor it. Not a fourth out appeal; a BOO appeal FIRST rules the correct batter out, THEN tells you to keep OTHER outs made on that play. In my mind, that means the BOO isn't the a fourth out appeal; it supercedes and becomes the third out, and whatever happened on the play becomes fourth (and even fifth) outs.

Admitting I drank two 32 oz margaritas (and a beer before, and a beer after) before coming home, doesn't this fix all the issues named above??

NOTE: Hey, it was a long day. 90 degrees plus, high humidity, I called 18 Gold at 9, 11, off at 1, 3, 5, and 7. Five games in 6 slots; I needed the salt (on the rim), the liquid, and yes, the tequila.

Back tomorrow at 9, 11, 1, and 5. And don't blame the assignor; it's me, and it's necessary.

[PSUchem]

Originally Posted by LIBlueASA

If the error is discovered AFTER the incorrect batter has completed a turn at bat (check) and before a legal or illegal pitch has been made to the following batter (can't happen in my case) or before the pitcher and all infielders have clearly vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory on their way to the dugout or bench area (THIS DID HAPPEN),

I agree, if we were going to honor the appeal, this condition is met. However, you still have not demonstrated how we can honor the appeal at all, as the only way to get a fourth out is on a runner who has scored.

Originally Posted by LIBlueASA

EFFECT(S)
a. The player who should have batted (B3 in my OP) is OUT. (But we already have 3 outs so now what?)

"Now what" is that, IMO, you can't honor the appeal, because you can't have a 4th out.

Originally Posted by LIBlueASA

b. Any advance or score made by the improper batter shall be nullified (ground out...no advance, no anything, it was the third out so no problems there) Any out that is made prior to discovering this infraction remains an OUT. (so her ground out remains out NUMBER 3. Check.)
(snip)

New emphasis mine.

Originally Posted by LIBlueASA

I am NOT choosing which half of the effect I want. I was following the rule to the letter. I still don't see where B3 comes to bat.

B3 comes to bat because we haven't honored the appeal and B2's at bat (the second one) is legal.

Originally Posted by LIBlueASA

I do see your argument, but I guess my real question here is....does it change the way the rule is interpreted when you have three outs? I think we all agree that if there was only one out and the improper batter grounded out for out number 2 and then the defense properly appealed BOO, we would declare B3 out, and it would be the third out and B4 would bat. Also, if there were no outs and the same thing happened, we would call B3 out for BOO, keep the out for the ground out of B2, and have B4 come up to bat. So why would this be different since it was the third out?

I agree, in these situations, the appeal would be honored. The difference is, the rulebook gives a specific way to obtain a 4th out, and this isn't it.

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

In the case you are discussing, IF a proper appeal was made for BOO, I WOULD honor it. Not a fourth out appeal; a BOO appeal FIRST rules the correct batter out, THEN tells you to keep OTHER outs made on that play. In my mind, that means the BOO isn't the a fourth out appeal; it supercedes and becomes the third out, and whatever happened on the play becomes fourth (and even fifth) outs.

First, the book does not allow for a 5th out. Reference? The NCAA book mentions it, but ASA does not.

You have correctly identified the issue. Which out is called "first"? If the proper batter is called out "first," we have no issue. Honor the appeal. However, since the rule says "all outs made stand," it leads me to believe that they have already been recorded, and occur "first."

If we can agree that since a. comes before b., then the proper batter is called out "first," then that's what I will call from this point forward and be able to sleep at night.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

My opinion; not an official ASA ruling or case play, as I don't have that authority. But, I do have some insight from the ASA Rules Committee (former member).

In the case you are discussing, IF a proper appeal was made for BOO, I WOULD honor it. Not a fourth out appeal; a BOO appeal FIRST rules the correct batter out, THEN tells you to keep OTHER outs made on that play. In my mind, that means the BOO isn't the a fourth out appeal; it supercedes and becomes the third out, and whatever happened on the play becomes fourth (and even fifth) outs.

Admitting I drank two 32 oz margaritas (and a beer before, and a beer after) before coming home, doesn't this fix all the issues named above??

NOTE: Hey, it was a long day. 90 degrees plus, high humidity, I called 18 Gold at 9, 11, off at 1, 3, 5, and 7. Five games in 6 slots; I needed the salt (on the rim), the liquid, and yes, the tequila.

Back tomorrow at 9, 11, 1, and 5. And don't blame the assignor; it's me, and it's necessary.

Nice work....
And the result is logical (to what most of us think).

I'll drink to that....

[argodad]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Back tomorrow at 9, 11, 1, and 5. And don't blame the assignor; it's me, and it's necessary.

Stay hydrated!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by argodad

Stay hydrated!

What would do that, the tequila or the worm?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by PSUchem

Due to this technicality, yes. If there had been less than 2 outs, then your ruling would have been correct. (And, as you can see, most on this board, without realizing this technicality, would have ruled the same.) I would welcome discussion otherwise from others on the board.

It comes down to two things:
1) Honor the appeal. B3 is out for failing to bat. B4 due up next inning. But, IMO, this is not supported by rule as this would be the 4th out.
2) Do not honor the appeal, due to (1). B2's at bat is legal, and B3 is due up.

Do you honor the appeal?

This is incorrect... and perhaps the fact that this is incorrect is why you are not getting any response from your higher ups. Your assertion is simply wrong. The appeal for BOO is certainly allowed. It's not a 4th out appeal. The BOO is the 3rd out.

Consider a more complex situation. Bases loaded, 2 outs, wrong batter hits a triple and is thrown out at home. Are you going to disallow a BOO appeal here, allowing 3 runs to score simply because the BR was put out? Of course not. The batter that should have batted is out (that's 3). Runners put back on their bases, and any runners put out on the play called out (THAT is now the 4th out.)

[SRW]

Originally Posted by PSUchem

Everyone is forgetting a very important detail. The groundout by the improper batter was the third out of the inning. In ASA, thou shalt not call a fourth out unless it is an appeal on a runner who has scored. Unlike NCAA, there is no stipulation for allowing an appeal on BOO as a fourth out. Without being able to appeal, B2's second at-bat must stand, and B3 will lead off next inning.

This is a major loophole in the ASA rules, and I have brought it to the attention of numerous "higher-ups," with no clear answer.

Situation #2: 2 outs, B6 is due up to bat. Instead, B9 comes to bat and grounds out. 3 outs. Without being able to appeal, B9's at-bat is legal. B1 leads off next inning. You have just effectively skipped the bottom of the order.

No major loophole at all. This is a major topic that I teach to new umpires... especially the fact that you have to get the order of the penalty correct.

In ASA you need to read the rule literally and linerally. 8.2.D.2 EFFECT a) "The player who should have batted is out." That's the first thing. THAT player is the 3rd out. THEN you move on to the rest of the penalty - b) Nullify play, all outs stand. (the phantom 4th out that doesn't count is on the BR). Don't be tricked into thinking "all outs stand" happens before "play is nullified" or before "the player who should have batted is out." You gotta keep it linear in this rule penalty.

In your Sit #2, the 3rd out is the player who should have batted, or B6. Then B7 comes to bat next inning.

[Andy]

In the case you are discussing, IF a proper appeal was made for BOO, I WOULD honor it. Not a fourth out appeal; a BOO appeal FIRST rules the correct batter out, THEN tells you to keep OTHER outs made on that play. In my mind, that means the BOO isn't the a fourth out appeal; it supercedes and becomes the third out, and whatever happened on the play becomes fourth (and even fifth) outs.

In ASA you need to read the rule literally and linerally. 8.2.D.2 EFFECT a) "The player who should have batted is out." That's the first thing. THAT player is the 3rd out. THEN you move on to the rest of the penalty - b) Nullify play, all outs stand. (the phantom 4th out that doesn't count is on the BR). Don't be tricked into thinking "all outs stand" happens before "play is nullified" or before "the player who should have batted is out." You gotta keep it linear in this rule penalty

Here we go with the common sense again.....good job, gentlemen!