Couple questions

[Fg8or]

Fastpitch for 9-10 year old girls. Pitcher throws 4 balls for a walk. Catcher throws ball back to pitcher and pitcher is on rubber with ball before runner reaches 1st. Runner keeps running to second. Pitcher does not realize this because she is waiting on next batter. Is this legal? 2 bases on a walk. I know they can steal, but only after ball crosses plate on a pitch.

[MD Longhorn]

Of course it's legal. She can score if no one bothers to stop her, so long as she never stops on a base or otherwise breaks the LBR.

[marvin]

Originally Posted by Fg8or

Fastpitch for 9-10 year old girls. Pitcher throws 4 balls for a walk. Catcher throws ball back to pitcher and pitcher is on rubber with ball before runner reaches 1st. Runner keeps running to second. Pitcher does not realize this because she is waiting on next batter. Is this legal? 2 bases on a walk. I know they can steal, but only after ball crosses plate on a pitch.

Check the local association/league rules. They may have something addressing this, but absent a local rule no violation

[umpirebob71]

As has been written, perfectly legal. Just consider it a good lesson learned.

[tcannizzo]

As previously stated, perfectly legal and commonly seen until 14-U, and then it starts tailing off at 16-U and up, but sometimes even seen at HS and College levels.

Allow me to put my coaches hat back on for a moment and offer you a defense for this. Blues chime in, but don't dump on me for the coaching lesson.
[/ coach on]

On Ball 4 have F2 fire the ball back to F1.
BR should still be only half-way to 1B at this point.
Have F1 keep ball in throwing hand and put both hands down at her side.
At the same time, have her WALK towards the back edge of the circle.
And have F6 walk over to 2B.
BR should be rounding 1B at this point in time and now simply becomes R.
When R is about 12-15 feet from 2B have F1 fire ball to F6 and make a tag or get R in rundown.

Now, this is usually done when there is R on 3B. Why? because on a play at 2B, R1 will easily score. Offense is glad to trade an out for a run. And this is where it becomes tricky for the defense.

Now, let's reset this with proper identification of runners. The runner closest to home is called R1, so you have R1 on 3B and the BR becomes R2 after rounding 1B.

When R2 is about 12-15 feet from 2B, F1 fires to F6.
However, F6 does not care at all about R2. And in fact, she should take the throw while she is stepping towards F1 and then fires to F2, which (even at 10-U) will allow for an easy out at home. Why? this reduces the distance that F6 has to get the ball to F2 ahead of the runner. And by moving F1 to the back of the circle reduces the distance of the throw to F6.

But the play is not over yet, because coach will bring R2 over to 3B on the throw home, so instruct F2 to make the tag and immediately fire to F5 who is covering 3B and you should have a picture perfect double play.

Keys to practice that require discipline:
a.) F1 must keep a cool head and
> keep hands at her side
> not to rush to the back of the circle
> not release the ball too soon
b.) F6 must remember that R2 is not who she is trying to get out
c.) F2 must remember to get rid of the ball immediately after applying tag
d.) have F9 backing up the throw to F6
e.) have F8 backing up the throw to F5

Now your are playing good softball.
[/ coach off]

[JEL]

Originally Posted by Fg8or

Fastpitch for 9-10 year old girls. Pitcher throws 4 balls for a walk. Catcher throws ball back to pitcher and pitcher is on rubber with ball before runner reaches 1st. Runner keeps running to second. Pitcher does not realize this because she is waiting on next batter. Is this legal? 2 bases on a walk. I know they can steal, but only after ball crosses plate on a pitch.

If using ASA rules, they can steal when the ball leaves the pitchers hand!

This has been an ongoing arguement here in my locale. The coaches who know the rules use them to their advantage. They will keep their girls running, one last week DID run to, and past 3B on to score while the pitcher had the ball in the circle. That plated the winning run.

No amount of explaining could convince the other team this was a perfectly legal move. They also failed to realize that the pitcher at 35' was a lot closer to home plate than the runner who was at 60'! The runner was a "dead duck" had the pitcher been properly coached.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JEL

If using ASA rules, they can steal when the ball leaves the pitchers hand!

This is not a steal... this is the BR advancing beyond first.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

On Ball 4 have F2 fire the ball back to F1.
BR should still be only half-way to 1B at this point.
Have F1 keep ball in throwing hand and put both hands down at her side.
At the same time, have her WALK towards the back edge of the circle.
And have F6 walk over to 2B.
BR should be rounding 1B at this point in time and now simply becomes R.
When R is about 12-15 feet from 2B have F1 fire ball to F6 and make a tag or get R in rundown.

Now, this is usually done when there is R on 3B. Why? because on a play at 2B, R1 will easily score. Offense is glad to trade an out for a run. And this is where it becomes tricky for the defense.

I can't tell you how much it drives me crazy to see the defense do nothing on this play. I saw this just last night, with TWO FREAKING OUTS. take the out! Inning over! Asinine. Even with less than two, the pitcher has the ball - any pitcher worth 2 cents is usually one of the better players on the team, and should be able to properly time this out at 2nd so that you still have a play at home. 10U? Maybe not, but definitely 12, 14, or HS.

[Fg8or]

Good coaching tips guys. Thanks! I'm a first time coach with mostly first time players playing mostly all star handpicked teams. I was just getting confused as our league rules are a runner cannot leave the bag until th ball passes the plate. It seems these rules contradict theirselves. However legel it is I also think it takes away from the game( just my 2 cents). Thanks

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Fg8or

Good coaching tips guys. Thanks! I'm a first time coach with mostly first time players playing mostly all star handpicked teams. I was just getting confused as our league rules are a runner cannot leave the bag until th ball passes the plate. It seems these rules contradict theirselves. However legel it is I also think it takes away from the game( just my 2 cents). Thanks

Not sure exactly what your league rules say... but if we're talking about a walk here, the rules about what happens before the ball crosses the plate can't apply until your play is over. A walk (just like a single) is a live ball. Surely your league rules don't say a girl in motion (say, rounding first on a single) has to stop once the pitcher owns the ball. Consider a walk EXACTLY like a hit with the one minor difference that she can't be put out before reaching first base.

You've illustrated the problem that a great majority of the umpires have been saying for years. Almost ANY league rules (with the exception of time limits or run limits, I suppose) are inherently bad in that they poorly prepare their leagues for play in post-season tournaments and poorly prepare them to move to the next level. We fail to understand why the ASA (or whichever) rules don't meet the needs of leagues.

[JEL]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

This is not a steal... this is the BR advancing beyond first.

Yes it is, but in the OP...........

[tcannizzo]

This is simply a non-violation of the Look Back Rule.
The runner is not required to stop, even with F1 having control of the ball in the circle. All that is required for a runner is to get to a base when F1 is ready to pitch. Doesn't say which base or how many she may advance to.
If she stops, which she is allowed to do one time, then she has one second to either continue in the same direction or go back to the previous base.
She could go all the way around the bases if the defense lets her.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JEL

Yes it is, but in the OP...........

In the OP, what? Here's the OP...

Fastpitch for 9-10 year old girls. Pitcher throws 4 balls for a walk. Catcher throws ball back to pitcher and pitcher is on rubber with ball before runner reaches 1st. Runner keeps running to second. Pitcher does not realize this because she is waiting on next batter. Is this legal? 2 bases on a walk. I know they can steal, but only after ball crosses plate on a pitch.

This is not a steal at all... this is merely a batter-runner advancing to 2nd during a live ball.

[youngump]

From your citation of the op:

I know they can steal, but only after ball crosses plate on a pitch.

My guess is that's what was being responded to.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

This is not a steal... this is the BR advancing beyond first.

In the old ASA 10U (then 10B only) rules applying to 1 base per pitch if the ball wasn't put in play, this was one specific example of a stolen base that was to be reversed if the player reached the advance base safely.

And, the only way to correctly to mark this play in a scorebook is a stolen base, when legal.