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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 23, 2007, 11:26am
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A couple of questions

1) Team A has the ball out of bounds for a throw-in near the division line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who jumps from Team A's frontcourt, catches the ball in mid-air and lands in the back court.

Backcourt violation or no?

2) Is it possible to have a team-control intentional or flagrant foul?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 23, 2007, 11:30am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC_Ref12
1) Team A has the ball out of bounds for a throw-in near the division line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who jumps from Team A's frontcourt, catches the ball in mid-air and lands in the back court.

Backcourt violation or no?
No violation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DC_Ref12
2) Is it possible to have a team-control intentional or flagrant foul?
No you cannot. A Team Control foul has nothing to do with intentional or flagrant fouls.

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 23, 2007, 11:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
No violation.
Ok, I get it now. That's because there is no team or player control on a throw-in, correct?



Quote:
No you cannot. A Team Control foul has nothing to do with intentional or flagrant fouls.
I'm getting caught up on this one. I'm having trouble finding in the rule book where it defines a team control foul. My (limited) understanding is that when Team A is in control, illegal contact off the ball which is penalized is a team control foul. Thus, a intentional or flagrant foul off the ball would also be considered a team-control foul.

Where am I messing up?

Thanks.
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Old Mon Apr 23, 2007, 11:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC_Ref12
Ok, I get it now. That's because there is no team or player control on a throw-in, correct?




I'm getting caught up on this one. I'm having trouble finding in the rule book where it defines a team control foul. My (limited) understanding is that when Team A is in control, illegal contact off the ball which is penalized is a team control foul. Thus, a intentional or flagrant foul off the ball would also be considered a team-control foul.

Where am I messing up?

Thanks.

DC,

I don't have my book with me, but I might check the definitions of all the fouls, and if I recall correctly, somewhere in there it will say that team-control doesn't apply to those fouls. Perhaps look under the definition of team control.
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Old Mon Apr 23, 2007, 11:51am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewNCref
DC,

I don't have my book with me, but I might check the definitions of all the fouls, and if I recall correctly, somewhere in there it will say that team-control doesn't apply to those fouls. Perhaps look under the definition of team control.
Not seeing what you're describing. Here's how 4-19-3 and -4 read:

ART. 3 .... An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul which....

ART. 4 .... A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature....


Then, a team-control foul is defined simply as:

ART. 7 .... A team-control foul is a common foul committed by a member of the team that has control.

Okay, the lightbulb just turned on. If it is an intentional or flagrant foul, it's not a "common foul" as ART. 7 describes. Thus, by definition, it can't be a team-control foul.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
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Old Mon Apr 23, 2007, 12:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC_Ref12
Okay, the lightbulb just turned on. If it is an intentional or flagrant foul, it's not a "common foul" as ART. 7 describes. Thus, by definition, it can't be a team-control foul.
That's exactly right. Team control foul is a common foul. It's the same as if the dribbler punched a defender. Yes, there's player control; but it's not a PC foul, because it's not a common foul, it's a flagrant foul.
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Old Mon Apr 23, 2007, 01:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
1. No
2. I would go player rather than team
Just because the fouler has the ball doesn't make the foul a PC foul. A PC foul must, like the team control foul, be a common foul. Intentional and flagrant fouls do not apply.
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Old Mon Apr 23, 2007, 01:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC_Ref12
Ok, I get it now. That's because there is no team or player control on a throw-in, correct?

Thanks.
Not yet you don't. No backcourt violation because the rule specifically exludes what otherwise would be a back-court violation on the throw-in. Team control or not on the throw-in is not a factor.
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Old Mon Apr 23, 2007, 01:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamIAm
Not yet you don't. No backcourt violation because the rule specifically exludes what otherwise would be a back-court violation on the throw-in. Team control or not on the throw-in is not a factor.
Actually, team control is a factor. The rule states, "The team not in control...." and provides "during a throwin" as an example. Therefore, if team control is established in NFHS during a throwin, the rules will need to be adjusted in order to keep this from being a violation.
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Old Mon Apr 23, 2007, 02:27pm
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Quote:
1) Team A has the ball out of bounds for a throw-in near the division line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who jumps from Team A's frontcourt, catches the ball in mid-air and lands in the back court.
why is there no bc for this? In fiba this is a violation (how ever there is team control during a throw in under fiba rules) but
When the player catches the ball, in mid -air, he has control, and he comes from his fc and lands in his bc. That sounds like a bc violation to me, is there a ncaa case play who say it isn't then?
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Old Mon Apr 23, 2007, 02:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy voyager
why is there no bc for this? In fiba this is a violation (how ever there is team control during a throw in under fiba rules) but
When the player catches the ball, in mid -air, he has control, and he comes from his fc and lands in his bc. That sounds like a bc violation to me, is there a ncaa case play who say it isn't then?
Because we are not using FIBA rules.

Also the NCAA does not use a casebook. They do use some rulings in the rulebook, but that is not relevant to this discussion. There is a reason FIBA is a separate organization.

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Old Mon Apr 23, 2007, 02:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
There is a reason FIBA is a separate organization.
How much time ya' got?
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Old Mon Apr 23, 2007, 02:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Actually, team control is a factor. The rule states, "The team not in control...." and provides "during a throwin" as an example. Therefore, if team control is established in NFHS during a throwin, the rules will need to be adjusted in order to keep this from being a violation.
I don't have a rule book in front of me, but I don't think you an get team control until the throw-in is over. Please give me a scenario if I am mistaken.
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Old Mon Apr 23, 2007, 03:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy voyager
why is there no bc for this? In fiba this is a violation (how ever there is team control during a throw in under fiba rules) but
When the player catches the ball, in mid -air, he has control, and he comes from his fc and lands in his bc. That sounds like a bc violation to me, is there a ncaa case play who say it isn't then?
The reason is because there is a specific exception set up in rules on a throw-in (9-9-3). Otherwise, it would be considered a violation if the player jumped from the front court, secured the ball in the air (player and team control inbounds, front court status), and landed in the back court. The exception in NFHS rules allow for the player to do this, even land with the first foot in the front court, and the second foot in the back court, without penalty. The other exception is to allow a defensive player B1 to make the steal during a live ball inbounds and jump from B's front court to back court without penalty.
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Old Mon Apr 23, 2007, 03:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Actually, team control is a factor. The rule states, "The team not in control...." and provides "during a throwin" as an example. Therefore, if team control is established in NFHS during a throwin, the rules will need to be adjusted in order to keep this from being a violation.
I'm not sure they would need to adjust much, because of the throw-in exception already in place (9-9-3).
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