Dropped third strike?

[Rita C]

This was 11-12 softball. Dropped third strike applies.

2 outs. 2 strikes on batter. No scoreboard, players not paying attention to umpire.

Uncaught third, batter doesn't run. Ball is thrown back to pitcher who gets on the rubber because she thinks there is another pitch. Coach, who is aware of the count, yells at pitcher to throw to first, which she does without disengaging rubber.

What should be the call?

Rita

[LIUmp]

You have the batter-runner out. There can be no other pitch to the batter, as his/her turn at bat has ended with the U3K. So the pitcher taking a position on the pitcher's plate means nothing in this situation.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Rita C

This was 11-12 softball. Dropped third strike applies.

2 outs. 2 strikes on batter. No scoreboard, players not paying attention to umpire.

Uncaught third, batter doesn't run. Ball is thrown back to pitcher who gets on the rubber because she thinks there is another pitch. Coach, who is aware of the count, yells at pitcher to throw to first, which she does without disengaging rubber.

What should be the call?

Rita

Rita, you may consider this insignificant, but it really isn't.

There is no "rubber" in softball. If you really think you are a softball umpire, then you should call it what SOFTBALL calls it; a pitcher's plate. Just like no mound; that is the circle.

Respect the game, use the game's terminology.

That said, it really matters NOT that the pitcher happened to be in contact with he pitcher's plate while making a play. Not a pitch, therefore not an illegal pitch. The question, like the terminology, reeks of baseball, not softball.

[marvin]

IN NFHS:

Rule 6-3, ART. 7 . . . The pitcher shall not throw to a base while a foot is in contact with the pitcher’s plate after having taken the pitching position.

In NCAA:

10.17 Throwing to a Base From the Pitcher’s Plate
The pitcher shall not throw to a base during a live ball while her foot is in contact with the pitcher’s plate after she has taken the pitching position. If the throw from the pitcher’s plate occurs during a live-ball appeal play, the appeal is canceled. Note: The pitcher may remove herself from the pitching position by stepping backward off the pitcher’s plate before separating her hands.
EFFECT—Illegal pitch. (See Rule 10.8.)

If the pitcher took her position to pitch to the next batter (not realizing that the previous batter is not out yet) on the pitcher's plate why wouldn't she have to disengage before throwing to first? Seems like a pretty reasonable softball question to me. Somebody's smell-o-meter seems to be off. It would seem that the determining factor in the above rule sets is whether the pitcher in a position to deliver a pitch.

Rita - what rule set applied to the game in question?

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Rita, you may consider this insignificant, but it really isn't.

There is no "rubber" in softball. If you really think you are a softball umpire, then you should call it what SOFTBALL calls it; a pitcher's plate. Just like no mound; that is the circle.

Respect the game, use the game's terminology.

That said, it really matters NOT that the pitcher happened to be in contact with he pitcher's plate while making a play. Not a pitch, therefore not an illegal pitch. The question, like the terminology, reeks of baseball, not softball.

It isn't insignificant to use the word "reeks" either.

As it happens I am a baseball umpire and I do understand that game better than I do softball. However, I am umpiring softball in a local association because the assignor respects me as an official and as an umpire and he asked me to umpire games for him.

One of the reasons he respects me is because he knows that I will do my best to learn the game and to call it as it should be called. But there are only two in the association (it's a very small association) who know the game well enough to answer the questions I have. So I come here for different explanations that will expand my knowledge.

Now the softball rulebook says that the pitcher may not throw to a base when in contact with the plate. I am trying to learn the intricacies of softball. You say it doesn't matter in this case. OK.

I will endeavor to use the correct terminology for the game if I ask more questions. It isn't a matter of respect for the game. That I show by trying to learn more about how to call the game. Using the correct terminology is respecting that it matters to you and others.

Rita

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by marvin

IN NFHS:



In NCAA:



If the pitcher took her position to pitch to the next batter (not realizing that the previous batter is not out yet) on the pitcher's plate why wouldn't she have to disengage before throwing to first? Seems like a pretty reasonable softball question to me. Somebody's smell-o-meter seems to be off. It would seem that the determining factor in the above rule sets is whether the pitcher in a position to deliver a pitch.

Rita - what rule set applied to the game in question?

Marvin, the situation happened in a Little League softball game but they have the same rule as NFHS. So I wondered how the same situation might be called in other rules sets.

Thank you for your answer. I'm hoping to get more answers to get a full understanding of the rule and it's application.

Rita

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Rule 6-3, ART. 7 . . . The pitcher shall not throw to a base while a foot is in contact with the pitcher’s plate after having taken the pitching position.

There is no batter yet so there can be no penalty.

Ignore it and allow the play.

Joel

[LIUmp]

Sorry I didn't make my point clear the first time.

The at bat is over, therefore when the pitcher throws to first base, the batter runner would be out. There is a play that needs to be made, and the pitcher's making it. F1 is not taking the pitching position because you would not allow her to pitch another pitch to this same batter.

At least I'd hope not.

[clev1967]

"respect the game"? How about respecting the people trying to learn more about the game!!



FYI- 90% of the time "the object in the circle the pitcher starts with both feet on or touching" is referenced; it is called the rubber- by players, coaches, umpires, and sellers of the product.

[BretMan]

To have a legal pitch, you need to have a batter in the batter's box. By rule, this (former) batter is now a batter-runner. You can't throw a pitch to one of those! Therefore, the pitcher cannot be "in the pitching position".

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by clev1967

"respect the game"? How about respecting the people trying to learn more about the game!!



FYI- 90% of the time "the object in the circle the pitcher starts with both feet on or touching" is referenced; it is called the rubber- by players, coaches, umpires, and sellers of the product.

So, as an umpire, you aren't expected to use the proper RULEBOOK terminology? It's okay to call interference obstruction or vice versa whenever you make up a statistic like 90% of the time others use the wrong term?

Or, are you expected to read the rulebook, use the terms defined in the game in the way the rulebook uses them, and discuss the game with others using the proper terms? How about teaching the proper terms to the 90% by using them whenever you talk about them?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by clev1967

FYI- 90% of the time "the object in the circle the pitcher starts with both feet on or touching" is referenced; it is called the rubber- by players, coaches, umpires, and sellers of the product.

So, you are saying that after talking to EVERYONE in the world that has anything to do with the game (man, that must have taken years ), you have concluded that 90% use the improper technology.

Hey, Steve, congrats! We are in the top 10%, YAHOO!!!

[Dutch Alex]

QUOTE by Gulf coast blue:
Rule 6-3, ART. 7 . . . The pitcher shall not throw to a base while a foot is in contact with the pitcher’s plate after having taken the pitching position.

There is no batter yet so there can be no penalty.

Ignore it and allow the play.

Joel


Now this sounds like BB to me! Ain't this sounds like a balk?
Without a batter present in SB I have nothing! F1 ain't pitching if there's no batter present...

Rita,
forget the crap you're getting from our fellow umpires, for being a BB-ump.
Buy, loan, lease or steel (only I you can't afford it) a SB-rulebook (in the rule set by your fed.) read it and ask any question you want over here!!! We are here to help any umpire, regardless where you're coming from. I'm a dutch blue and was taken in this community without questioning my back ground. (I could be a former soccer ref., ain't that be like cursing in a church? Or I could have a white skin, blue eyed and blond hair) So why should I, or anyone else over here, question your background???

LL in Europe sounds to me like BB, but then different. More paying attention to safety than to SB rule-sets...
Can't say I like it very much or understand it complete. (What's the difference?)

In ISF/ESF this sit. doesn't occur, or at this level it shouldn't. If it did, I would not let F1 take any actions that would result in a pitch; legal or illegal. If she want's to throw to B1 while in contact with the PP (or if you prefer: the rubber - I alway think it's a rubber if it's from Durex -) let her! I won't give a penalty to F3 if she's throwing while in contact with B1. F1 is a fielder, cause there isn't a batter present - not a pitcher at that moment...

Like Joel said: "Ignore..." The rest will follow... Good luck and have fun!

[KJUmp]

Rita maybe inexperienced/new to umpiring softball and not yet up to speed on all the intricacies and nuances of the rules and terminology of the game. But she is an experienced baseball and basketball official who, while perhaps new to the Softball board, posts on both the Baseball and Basketball boards of this Forum in a manner that always reflect not only a genuine desire to become a better official but also a high level of respect for the sports she officiates, the rules and fellow officials.
Glad to see you're getting involved in softball Rita. The sport needs good umpires no matter what level or rule code. Good luck.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Rita maybe inexperienced/new to umpiring softball and not yet up to speed on all the intricacies and nuances of the rules and terminology of the game. But she is an experienced baseball and basketball official who, while perhaps new to the Softball board, posts on both the Baseball and Basketball boards of this Forum in a manner that always reflect not only a genuine desire to become a better official but also a high level of respect for the sports she officiates, the rules and fellow officials.
Glad to see you're getting involved in softball Rita. The sport needs good umpires no matter what level or rule code. Good luck.

And if you ask me, she's kind of cute!!!