Screwy Play that acually happened

[varefump]

In a NFHS game, there was the following play:

Runner R1 on first and R2 on second, one out, count on the batter is 3 balls, one strike. Pitcher begins her pitch and base umpire immediately calls illegal pitch and signals delayed dead ball because the pitcher steps back with the non-pivot foot after the hands are brought together. Then runner R1 clearly leaves early before the release of the pitch. The base umpire immediately calls “Dead Ball, No Pitch, Runner at first left too soon!” The pitcher delivers the pitch and the batter attempts a bunt, but does not make contact with the ball.

What are the correct penalties for the two separate infractions, one by the defense and one by the offense?

I say that R1 is out (for violation of lookback rule) and R2 is awarded 3rd (for the illegal pitch). Does the dead ball negate the 'ball' being awarded to the batter?

Help!!!

[NCASAUmp]

Can't speak for NFHS, but I'll take a stab at the ASA answer. Correct me if I'm wrong. And remember, I'm SP-only.

When the pitcher committed the IP, we've got a DDB. Then, we have the runner leaving the base too soon (not a violation of the LBR). Once the runner left the base, the ball immediately becomes dead.

Enforce both. The pitcher committed the infraction, so a ball is awarded to the batter, and the runners advance. Then, enforce the runner leaving early AFTER enforcing the IP.

Why is that important?

Well, what if there were two outs with a runner on 3B?

Am I right? Or am I smoking crack?

[Tru_in_Blu]

A couple of things I recall, hazily.

I thought this scenario was an ASA clarifications scenario.

An illegal pitch is a delayed dead ball, but leaving early is an immediate "no pitch", so if a batter contacts the ball if pitched, I'd say we have nothing.

My thinking is that the no pitch would take precedence over the DDB, so in the case that there were 2 outs, no need to award a ball to the batter or move any other runners. Three outs, inning over.

Gotta look for that rules & clarifications page.

[Tru_in_Blu]

March 2008
Illegal Pitch / Runner leaving Early

The question has been asked what to do when an illegal pitch is called in fast pitch and also a runner leaves before the release of the pitch. If an Illegal pitch is called and then a runner leaves before the pitch is released then the base umpire should also call dead ball. Since dead ball is called and no pitch happens the umpire should enforce the Illegal pitch, a ball on the batter and the runner leaving the base too soon will be called out. If there is more than one runner on base then the runner leaving the base too soon is out and all other runners are advanced one base because of the illegal pitch.

PLAY: R1 on 1B and no count on B2. F1 commits an illegal pitch, by bringing the hands together a second time, which is called by the plate umpire, but continues the pitch. Just before releasing the ball R1 leaves the base before the release of the pitch. In (a) B1 does not swing at the pitch. In (b) B1 swings at the pitch and gets a base hit. In (c) R1 is on 1B and R2 is on 3B at the start of the play.

RULING: The illegal pitch happened when the pitcher brought their hands together, paused, the hands separated to begin the pitch, then the hands came back together prior to the release of the pitch. In (a) and (b) the ball became dead when R1 left 1B before the pitch was released. The fact that the batter did not swing in (a) or got a hit in (b) is irrelevant because the ball became dead when R1 left 1B early. Enforce both the leaving early and illegal pitch infractions, The Ball is dead and R1 is out and a ball is awarded to B2. In (c) The plate umpire should call illegal pitch when it occurs and then “dead ball” when R1 leaves 1B too soon. R1 is out, R2 is awarded home and B2 is awarded a ball in the count.

Rule 8, Section 7-S, Effect, Rule 6, Section 3-B, Effect-A Illegal Pitch

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

March 2008
Illegal Pitch / Runner leaving Early

The question has been asked what to do when an illegal pitch is called in fast pitch and also a runner leaves before the release of the pitch. If an Illegal pitch is called and then a runner leaves before the pitch is released then the base umpire should also call dead ball. Since dead ball is called and no pitch happens the umpire should enforce the Illegal pitch, a ball on the batter and the runner leaving the base too soon will be called out. If there is more than one runner on base then the runner leaving the base too soon is out and all other runners are advanced one base because of the illegal pitch.

PLAY: R1 on 1B and no count on B2. F1 commits an illegal pitch, by bringing the hands together a second time, which is called by the plate umpire, but continues the pitch. Just before releasing the ball R1 leaves the base before the release of the pitch. In (a) B1 does not swing at the pitch. In (b) B1 swings at the pitch and gets a base hit. In (c) R1 is on 1B and R2 is on 3B at the start of the play.

RULING: The illegal pitch happened when the pitcher brought their hands together, paused, the hands separated to begin the pitch, then the hands came back together prior to the release of the pitch. In (a) and (b) the ball became dead when R1 left 1B before the pitch was released. The fact that the batter did not swing in (a) or got a hit in (b) is irrelevant because the ball became dead when R1 left 1B early. Enforce both the leaving early and illegal pitch infractions, The Ball is dead and R1 is out and a ball is awarded to B2. In (c) The plate umpire should call illegal pitch when it occurs and then “dead ball” when R1 leaves 1B too soon. R1 is out, R2 is awarded home and B2 is awarded a ball in the count.

Rule 8, Section 7-S, Effect, Rule 6, Section 3-B, Effect-A Illegal Pitch

Tru....what rule set are you referencing? I don't work NFHS and I'm currently about 200 miles away from my ASA book.

[MD Longhorn]

And I believe that was argued both here and in my meeting soon after that. Here's why.

Given that interpretation, if I was pitching - once I got a runner on first, I'd get on the pitching plate, wind up as if to pitch and simply not throw the ball. There - I've committed an illegal pitch... but the runner most likely left when I appeared to be pitching. So I have a ball on the batter, but my runner is out.

Obviously that is not right.

An illegal pitch is illegal for some reason - many of which involve deceiving runners or the batter (albeit not all). If the pitch is illegal and deceives the runner, I have a hard time penalizing the runner.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Tru....what rule set are you referencing? I don't work NFHS and I'm currently about 200 miles away from my ASA book.

He's referencing ASA.

I'll also point out the effect listed for ASA 8-7-S:

EFFECT - Sections 8 R-S: The ball is dead, “no pitch” is declared when applicable, and the runner is out.

I interpret the "when applicable" to describe situations OTHER than what we're describing here. I don't think we can ignore the pitching infraction, nor can we ignore the runner leaving early. I'd enforce both in the order and manner I described earlier.

But bringing this back to the OP... Since this was NFHS, would this be ruled any differently?

[RKBUmp]

I seem to remember this coming up in one of the preseason FED clinics with the ruling being you enforce both. Dont have time to look through the case book at the moment to see if it is covered.

[BretMan]

FED Case Book says to enforce both. Case Play is 8.6.21

The ball is dead on the "leaving early" infraction. The runner that left early is out. The illegal pitch penalty is enforced- a ball added to the batter's count and any other runners on base advance one base.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by BretMan

FED Case Book says to enforce both. Case Play is 8.6.21

The ball is dead on the "leaving early" infraction. The runner that left early is out. The illegal pitch penalty is enforced- a ball added to the batter's count and any other runners on base advance one base.

But in which order?

Say bases are loaded with 2 outs. Does R1 on 3B score?

[SRW]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

But in which order?

Say bases are loaded with 2 outs. Does R1 on 3B score?

You have to enforce them in the order in which they occured. IP is a DDB, and you get to award bases, then DB for the RLE, out #3. Run scores.

Remember, both sides F'd up here. the Oteam gets the 3rd out, but they get rewarded for the Dteam and the IP. The Dteam gets rewarded for the Oteam's screwup, but they get penalized for the IP.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

...An illegal pitch is illegal for some reason - many of which involve deceiving runners or the batter (albeit not all). If the pitch is illegal and deceives the runner, I have a hard time penalizing the runner.

This is why I've always had a hard time with the official interpretation here. Those illegal pitch actions that throw off the runner's timing should not be rewarded if they succeed.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by SRW

You have to enforce them in the order in which they occured. IP is a DDB, and you get to award bases, then DB for the RLE, out #3. Run scores.

Remember, both sides F'd up here. the Oteam gets the 3rd out, but they get rewarded for the Dteam and the IP. The Dteam gets rewarded for the Oteam's screwup, but they get penalized for the IP.

ZING! A SP guy just nailed a FP question.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by Dakota

This is why I've always had a hard time with the official interpretation here. Those illegal pitch actions that throw off the runner's timing should not be rewarded if they succeed.

If an illegal pitch is done intentionally, then don't we have a different situation? I can't find an official rule in the rules book, but I did find this in the NFHS casebook:

6.2.1 Situation: With Ri on second base, the pitcher uses a legal delivery. However, she throws the ball up in the air and catches. The umpire awards R1 third base and awards the batter a ball because of the illegal pitch. This procedure was used to put the batter on base without pitching to the batter.
Ruling: The umpire is correct and shall warn the pitcher if this procedure is repeated, she will be guilty of unsportmanlike conduct and ejected from the game. (3-6-13)

[Tru_in_Blu]

Both the ASA Rule Clarification & Play and the NFHS Case 8.6.21 do not specify the number of outs. I think that w/ less than 2 outs, a runner from 3B would score and no one seems to disagree with that. With 2 outs, it's not so clear.

Here's the NFHS case:

RUNNER LEAVES BASE EARLY
8.6.21 SITUATION: With R1 on third base and R2 on first base, F1 double
touches for an illegal pitch. The plate umpire calls an illegal pitch but before the hands separate to deliver the ball, R2 leaves first base on her way to second base.
The base umpire calls "dead ball" and calls R2 out. RULING: R2 is out for leaving first base before F1 released the ball. The illegal pitch is enforced which results in a "ball" awarded to B3 and one base (home) to R1. (6-1-2)

The ruling above deals w/ R2 being out before the illegal pitch penalty is enforced. So if that's the case, with 2 outs to start, the LBE results in the 3rd out. After that, can bases be awarded and a ball be added to the batter's count?