Screwy wording

[SamNVa]

How do you interpret the following rule (ASA 8-2-D, FED 8.2.4)
The batter-runner shall eb called out when: the batter-runner fails to advance to 1st base and enters the team area after a batted fair ball, a base on balls, a hit batter (F.P.) , a droppred third strike (F.P.), or catcher obstruction.
Exception: (s.P.) The ball is dead on a base on balls, or on a hit batter (F.P.) the ball is dead , the batter-runner is not out and runners cannot advance unless forced.

Does the exception override the rule thus making it ok for the BR to enter the dugout after a HBP (the only ruling that makes sense to me, BTW). If so why go to the trouble to put it into the rule at all?

SamC

[oppool]

The way I read the rule basically states BR cannot be called out for entering the dugout during a dead ball situations and the exception added to clarify DEAD BALL situations for FP & SP


JMO

Don

[greymule]

Looks as if ASA stated one thing and then immediately contradicted themselves.

It's like saying, "You must sign and return this form if you live in New York, New Jersey, or Pennsylvania. Exception: You don't have to sign and return the form if you live in Pennsylvania."

Wouldn't be the first screwup in the ASA book. Wouldn't be the first time I missed something, either. Maybe somebody else can make sense of this.

[SC Ump]

Definitely looks like a mistake in printing. Here's what I think it might be.

In the FED book, the very next item after what was quoted is the "penalty". If you move that penalty line up to before the exception it seems to make a little more sense:

8.2 The batter-runner shall be called out when:
ART. 4... The batter-runner fails to advance to first base and enters the team area after a batted fair ball, a base on balls, a hit batter (F.P.), a droppred third strike (F.P.), or catcher obstruction.
PENALTY: The ball is dead and the runner(s) must return to the last base legally touched at the time of the infraction.
Exception: (S.P.) The ball is dead on a base on balls, or on a hit batter (F.P.) the ball is dead, the batter-runner is not out and runners cannot advance unless forced.

But I don't understand why they would say "unless forced since no one can be forced if the batter-runner is out.

Here is a play that we had in the state championship last year. I think I mentioned it on here once before.

Batter (who is the pitcher for her team) gets hit by pitch. She is hurt but not badly. Walks it off for a while and heads to the dugout as the courtesy runner comes in for her. Courtesy runner goes to first as batter goes to dugout, having never touched first. PU rings up the batter.

At the time of the pitch there was a girl on first. She was now at second. I sent her back to first. That received a bigger argument than the out on the batter for not going to first.

[greymule]

or on a hit batter (F.P.) the ball is dead, the batter-runner is not out and runners cannot advance unless forced.

I took this to mean that, for example, runners stealing on the pitch had to return unless the batter's award of 1B forced them to the next base.

But I don't understand why they would say "unless forced since no one can be forced if the batter-runner is out.

Because the rule states clearly that the batter-runner is not out.

And what was your partner's justification for ringing up the girl who was hit by a pitch and then replaced before she got to 1B? The ball is dead, and the runner can enter DBT without being out. Where does it say she must touch 1B before being replaced?

On a walk, where the ball remains live, the BR must go to 1B before being replaced, but I think a hit batsman is a different story. Can't find a case book ruling, however.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

I agree there is some circular type confusion here. I personally feel rule books, in general, are filled with such confusing direction. Trying to stuff SP and FP into the same statement also confuses the issues. Common sense must prevail.

The section is Batter-Runner is Out

Article 4 (FED) Times when the BR is out (basically when the defense has created live ball situations that allows the BR to advance to first and then the BR abandons his/her opportunity).

I read the Exception to be dead ball situations that allow the BR to stop at the dugout to get rid of her bat, drop off her batting gloves, change batting helmets, stretch a hit body part... etc.

This is not time for the PU to call the BR out. Allow common sense to prevail.

I like SC Umps order of the elements (rule, penalty, exception) but it doesn't quite mess with the established organizational structure of the other articles - "EFFECT: Art 1 through 3 - the ball is in play." PENALTY (following article 4) "The ball is dead..." The next listed "PENALTY: ART 5 through 8..."

The "unless forced" part of the exception is simply because the ball is dead - no one advances unless they are forced. No possible way could a runner (stealing) advance to the next base in the time between the ball leaving the pitcher's hand and it hitting the batter. The ball is dead when the batter is hit and runners only advance if they are forced by the BR being placed on first (after doing their dead ball activities).

SC, I think your partner hosed it big time for calling a hit batsman out for not touching first before the courtesy runner entered (although I can understand hoow it might happen). And I'm sure between being hit, then being called out, and then sending the runner back to first, the offensive coach was furious. The DEFENSE is supposed to be punished for hitting the batsman... not the offense.

This rule does appear to be confusing but please let common sense prevail.

[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on Sep 30th, 2003 at 10:07 AM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by SC Ump


Here is a play that we had in the state championship last year. I think I mentioned it on here once before.

Batter (who is the pitcher for her team) gets hit by pitch. She is hurt but not badly. Walks it off for a while and heads to the dugout as the courtesy runner comes in for her. Courtesy runner goes to first as batter goes to dugout, having never touched first. PU rings up the batter.

At the time of the pitch there was a girl on first. She was now at second. I sent her back to first. That received a bigger argument than the out on the batter for not going to first.

Speaking ASA

Actually, I would have no problem with the PU's ruling. I understand the contradiction, but this error can run both ways. Unless physically unable to advance, awarded bases must be touched by those to whom the base was awarded.

And I would have a problem with returning the runner to 1B since the awarded base is not recinded and she was indeed forced to move up.

JMHO,

[CecilOne]

The "physically unable to advance" aspect is the key; but calling the out is still really nitpicking, lacking in common sense when the ball is dead. Besides, he said the ump called the batter out, not the BR.

What I said on the NFHS forum (first Q, not the CR sit.):
I say the batter is not out because exceptions are there to override rules. Looks like the rule came first and then someone realized the dead ball situations and wasn't sure or didn't have authority to remove HBP from the rule. Or maybe they were afraid players would confuse it with HBP in SP whne it's ball four. Or maybe it's just the usual lack of editing by our nation's educators.
The problem is how long the BR stays off the base before you have to call something. That's not in the rules, so I guess you have a quandary. Rule 10 again.

[greymule]

You're the umpire. Batter hit by pitch. Dead ball. Girl apparently hurt a little, goes to the bench, where coach assesses her injury. She's OK. With ball dead, coach tells you that CR is going to 1B for BR.

Do you allow the CR to go to 1B and then call the BR out? Is it legal to replace BR before she proceeds to 1B? If not, you must inform the coach otherwise, just as you would if the coach told you he was sending in a CR for the left fielder. With the ball dead, I would permit a CR or a sub without requiring BR to touch 1B.

It's another story if the offense simply sends out a CR without informing the umpire.

I think this is a situation that should never be allowed to happen.

[IRISHMAFIA]

If the batter is HPB and awarded 1B, then she is no longer the batter, is she?

I have never seen an injured player go to the bench. It has always been that the bench comes to her. The coaches are usually halfway to her before the umpire can raise their hands to kill the play.

There is no doubt that a little preventive umpiring would take care of this situation, but the umpire better do it right. 'Cause if the CR goes to 1B as the BR goes directly to the dugout and the opposition appeals the BR not advancing to 1B, that umpire is either going to have to rule the BR-R out or have a substitution in hand for the player too injured to participate in the game.

[SC Ump]

My partner ruled that the girl awarded first did not touch her awarded bases. (And, yes, she was physically able to do so.) An assistant coach of the defensive team was a former member of our umpiring organization. I later learned that at that time he was discussing with the head coach the fact that the infraction was occurring.

[greymule]

When a coach announces to us that he is sending in a courtesy runner, and that CR for one reason or another cannot legally enter, do we allow the CR and then assess penalties, or do we tell the coach he cannot enter that CR?

[Dakota]

Originally posted by greymule
When a coach announces to us that he is sending in a courtesy runner, and that CR for one reason or another cannot legally enter, do we allow the CR and then assess penalties, or do we tell the coach he cannot enter that CR?

I will tell the coach if a player he wants to enter as a courtesy runner cannot legally be the CR. No violation has occurred yet, and I should not enter on the lineup card a player who is not legally entitled to that position.

That is different, though, from prompting the BR / coach that players need to touch the bases.

It is true that by rule the BR cannot be declared out for merely entering the dugout during a dead ball, in the situation described that is not what she is doing. She is failing to touch awarded bases in legal order (Rule 8-3I). This becomes clear once the CR goes to the base. Up until that time, the BR may still come out of the dugout and touch 1st.

I see the preventative umpiring point, I'm struggling with the idea of the umpire reminding players and coaches that they need to touch the bases.

[Dakota]

The wording of the rule originally cited is just another example (IMO) of ASA's fractured syntax. This happens when a fairly complicated document gets partial revision every year by committee vote and has only rarely been comprehensively re-edited.

Even though it reads funny, I don't ultimately see any contradiction (taking the rule as a whole, including the exception) or any confusion as to meaning.

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by Dakota
... example (IMO) of ASA's fractured syntax. This happens when a fairly complicated document gets partial revision every year by committee vote ...

I do not have an ASA book, but the original post is almost word for word the same as FED. I agree with you about how the document got that way, but the coincidence of both of them being the same makes we wonder what kind of collusions are going on. (Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean everyone is not still out to get me.)

[Edited by SC Ump on Oct 2nd, 2003 at 03:50 AM]