Foul or Out?

[BretMan]

This is a question that's been debated numerous times on this, and other forums (and, I suspect, in clinics, classrooms and on the field).

And I've heard a lot of different good, well-thought out explanations that make sense. One problem is that some of those explanations don't jibe with some of the other ones. The bigger problem is that the precise definition of a batter-runner being "out of the box" on this play isn't presented in the rule book or interpretive literature. That leaves this call up to the interpretation of the individual umpire calling the play and that leads to an unevenly enforced rule and...confusion!

Some theories I've seen:

- If the B/R has one foot on the ground entirely out of the box, then she is out of the box.

- The B/R needs to have both feet out of the box before she is considered to be out of the box.

- If the batted ball hits the B/R over the area of the batter's box, it doesn't matter where her feet are. Consider that as being hit while in the box.

- The umpire should give the benefit of the doubt to the B/R. So long as the contact is made on the B/R's initial step from the box, and the contact is not judged to be intentional, rule this a foul ball.

All good theories that can be backed-up by various rules, interpretations, sound logic or even leaps in logic. But they obviously can't all be correct.

Going off on a bit of a tangent here...In 2010 the Official Baseball Rules finally- after a hundred years!- saw fit to better define this play. They crafted a rule change that says a batter hit by his own fair batted ball while not in his "legal position" is out. They go on to explain that, for the purpose of this rule, his "legal position" is both feet entirely within the batter's box. (Their previous rules didn't define this, but umpires were instructed to rule as in my fourth example above- give the B/R the benefit of the doubt and call it foul).

This isn't to suggest that the softball world should by default accept the OBR ruling, or that their way is the right way, or the only way to handle this. But I offer this example to show that even a stodgy institution resistant to change can recognize that this play needs to be better defined and can adopt some sort of rule to define it. It would be nice to see some of the softball organizations recognize the same need and incorporate a clear definition into their rules.

[greymule]

"In 2010 the Official Baseball Rules finally- after a hundred years!- saw fit to better define this play."

Yes, OBR's definition of foul (unlike ASA's) still doesn't include the ball hitting the batter in the box (but the J/R and other references do). The OBR book, as you note, covers it elsewhere (Section 6) and added clarification this year. Evans presents a couple of pages of notes (some dating to 1942) on the ball hitting the batter in the box in fair territory. (The 1942 notes say that on the first step out of the box, all benefit of doubt goes to the batter.)

[IRISHMAFIA]

BretMan & Greymule,

Who cares about the OBR?

[MigoP]

In NFHS it is clearly defined in rule 7.4 Art. 8. A batter is out if either foot is entirely out of the box and she hits it foul or fair. NFHS has defined it and instituted it into the rule book. ASA deviates from High School in too many ways. NFHS,OBR, both define it. Get with it asa. 6.03 OBR. The batters legal position shall be with BOTH feet within the batters box. Pretty clear there. 6.06 a OBR. A batter is out for illegal action when he hits ball with one or both feet out of box. 7.08f OBR. Runner is out when hit by fair ball before passing fielder. NFHS 8.6 art 11. Runner is out if struck with a fair untouched batted ball before it passes a fielder. Seems the only book to differ is asa.

[MigoP]

Irishmafia, everyone who is not limited to calling 1 league needs to understand the differences so they can make the right call based on the league their calling. Don't pigeonhole all in 1 league because you choose to stay limited.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

BretMan & Greymule,

Who cares about the OBR?

Me and Greymule? C'mon, Mike. I know you're probably just being flippant for flippancy's sake.

I tried to make it clear that I only mentioned OBR as an example of how one sport that is strikingly similar to softball and has a strikingly similar rule for this strikingly similar play might recognize that one element of this rule could be better defined for the sake of all game participants. Why can't we draw an analogy from a sport that shares many identical rules with softball, that softball was based upon from its inception and from which softball copied many of its original rules verbatim?

If the softball rules were more explicit on what constitutes a batter being in or out of the box on this play, then we wouldn't be having this discusion. But they don't, and considering how many times I've seen this question raised, that lack of a definition does seem to cause some confusion.

So let me rephrase this: I wish that the softball rules would publish a definte interpretation of when a batter is either in or out of the batter's box when struck by his own fair batted ball. And they should come up with a definition that is totally independent of what any other similar sport might or might not think about it!

By the way...I really don't like the rule that OBR came up with! It describes a batter being in the box after hitting the ball as the same position he is required to be in prior to the pitch (both feet entirely inside the box). Why not make it the same as the batter's legal position when contacting the pitch with the bat (foot may be extended beyond the lines as long as it's touching the lines and not entirely outside the box).

It seems counter-intuitive to say that the batter's position is legally in the box when hitting the ball, but if the ball then hits he's out of the box in that exact same position!

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by MigoP

In NFHS it is clearly defined in rule 7.4 Art. 8.

Well, it is if you consider a batter hitting a pitch and a batter being hit by that same batted ball after it left the bat as being one and the same event covered by the exact same rule.

To me, they're not and assuming they are requires that "leap in logic" I refered to in my first post.

Originally Posted by MigoP

NFHS, OBR, both define it....6.03 OBR.

If you read the actual OBR rule, you'll see that they now define a batter being hit by his own batted ball DIFFERENTLY than a batter hitting a pitch, with respect to a being in or out of the batter's box.

That kind of shoots down your logic that both separate events are treated in the exact same manner.

[MigoP]

Take the time to read 7.4 Art.a. NFHS. If you do you no longer have to ask why softball doesn't define it clearly. It's their rule published. 1 foot out, hit the ball, you're out. As to being hit with a fair ball before passing a fielder, all books say the same, you're out. Now if she's still in box and gets hit,foul ball. Pretty simple if you read the NFHS rule

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by MigoP

Take the time to read 7.4 Art.a. NFHS. If you do you no longer have to ask why softball doesn't define it clearly. It's their rule published. 1 foot out, hit the ball, you're out. As to being hit with a fair ball before passing a fielder, all books say the same, you're out. Now if she's still in box and gets hit,foul ball. Pretty simple if you read the NFHS rule

I don't need to "take the time to read 7-4-8" because I already know what it says. It is refering to a batter hitting the ball with a foot outside the batter's box. I know that a batter is out for doing that and that's not what I'm debating. That rule doesn't mention anything about the batted ball hitting the batter. And neither does the case play. Why would I want to waste my time reading a rule that has absolutely nothing to do with a batter-runner being hit by his own fair batted ball?

You're applying the requirements of that rule or case play to a completely different situation, covered by completely different rules. That requires a "leap in logic".

Then you tried to back up your "leap in logic" by saying that OBR also calls it the way you're stating. Maybe you should try reading their rule, because that isn't what it says at all. So, the example you offered as "proof" of your position actually disproves your point.

While you're digging through rule books, take a look at the two rules that really do apply to this play (in NFHS): 7-2-1(f) and 8-2-6. Can you tell us where in either of those rules there is a definition that explains when a batter or batter-runner is considered to be either in or out of the batter's box?

[scottk_61]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

My conclusion is that stepping with one foot completely out of the batter's box is out of the batter's box; no matter what rule you reference. JMO.

I remember specifically being given this same statement (almost verbatim) at the Advanced School by Merle and Henry.
Of coursed that was a few years back but I don't imagine ASA has changed anything that would make this incorrect.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by scottk_61

I remember specifically being given this same statement (almost verbatim) at the Advanced School by Merle and Henry.
Of coursed that was a few years back but I don't imagine ASA has changed anything that would make this incorrect.

Cool. So two highly respected ASA umpires and clinicians have offered a concrete guideline for calling this play. Of course, the fact that they needed to define it themselves does kind of illustrate the fact that a definition is lacking in the rule book.

So if that's the way they want it called, why can't they include that in the rule book or umpire manual for the benefit of the other 30,000 ASA umpires that weren't fortunate enough to attend this one clinic!

[CecilOne]

I don't have time to search for the sources, but I remember this as only one foot has to be out in ASA, PONY, NCAA and some others; but both feet have to be out in NFHS and USSSA. Of course, this only applies if the ball is fair.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Cool. So two highly respected ASA umpires and clinicians have offered a concrete guideline for calling this play. Of course, the fact that they needed to define it themselves does kind of illustrate the fact that a definition is lacking in the rule book

I don't think it is that difficult to understand ASA's take on in/out of the box. To me, the demands of rule is clear, and as stated earlier, you are in the box until you are out of it.

Touching the ground outside of the line of the batter's box, visible or perceived, is out of the box. For a legal pitch to be thrown, the entire foot must be inside the lines. To legally hit the ball, a foot must not be completely outside of the lines. And since the foot must be on the ground to be out of the box, a foot off the ground is......well, just a foot off the ground. The rules also state that a batter may not leave the box then re-enter it and hit the ball. Does that mean if the batter jumps straight up in the air and then lands in the box they (thats for you, Tom) have left the box? Of course, not. Why? Because the batter's foot/feet did not touch completely outside of the lines.

Since the discussion is hitting the ball, this is the application to which the umpire (in ASA) should refer.

[MigoP]

Bret. You answered your own question in your last post. Rule 7.4 Art.a. NFHS. defines what is considered out of the batters box. Your first question answered. The next 2 rules you want us to read 7-2-1f. 8-2-6 define what the penalty's are for being out of box. It doesn't matter if the batter or runner is hit with their own or someone elses batted ball. If it doesn't pass an infielder your out. If it's your own batted ball and you have 1 foot outside the box when contacted by fair batted ball, your out.
The OBR rules I cited 6.03. 6.06a. Say exactly what I said they say. Everyone with a book feel free to read for yourselves. Which kind of implies you didn't take the time to read them. There is no leap in logic, as both books say the same thing. The only leap in logic is not reading the rules as written. They both have rules defining out of the box, and both have rules defining being hit with a batted ball. The only question is if it's your own batted ball, were your feet still in box or has 1 foot left box. Both feet in box,hits you,foul. 1 foot completely out of box and it hits you, out.
You don't have to attend a clinic for this one as they have incorporated these rules in the book already. Read, read and re-read,the answers usually there.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MigoP

Irishmafia, everyone who is not limited to calling 1 league needs to understand the differences so they can make the right call based on the league their calling. Don't pigeonhole all in 1 league because you choose to stay limited.

Please stop driving this rallying cry of yours in every thread. THIS is the softball forum. We discuss softball rules here. The baseball forum is "over there" - they (and sometimes we) discusss baseball rules there. You're right that many umpires cross over - but saying we "should" discuss baseball rules here is like saying they should note the baseball rules in the softball rulebook.