Double first base question

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Dakota

But, suppose the BR doesn't overrun at all, but just continues to stand on the wrong base?

Then when awarded second base he will have to leave first, return to first and then advance to second.
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[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

"When an appeal is made in both situations (missing first base/touching incorrect color) it must be made prior to the runner returning to first base while the ball is live."

Again, this, literally, excludes any dead ball appeals.

No, it doesn't.

Then again, rule 8-2-M-3 makes no mention of live ball/dead ball, only that the appeal is made "prior to the BR returning to first base." I just like the potential conflict if questioned (yes, I know, Rule supplements are not rules).

OK, I've finally figured out where you're misreading this. Read the rule again first. This is the rule. Now, read the RS again, parsing the sentence differently than it seems like you are parsing it.

"it must be made prior to the runner returning to first base while the ball is live."

You are reading this to mean it must be made prior to the runner returning; and separately that it must be made while the ball is live. I can see now how you got there, but this is NOT in line with the rule.

Read it again like this. It must be made prior to {the runner returning to first base while the ball is live}. IOW - if the runner returns to first base while the ball is live, the appeal must be made before that happens. If the runner never returns to first base while the ball is live, then it can happen anytime. THIS way of reading it IS in line with the rule.

You said it yourself --- These are not rules, they are explanations or clarifications. You should assume that if your reading of a clarification contradicts the actual rule, that you're reading it differently than they intended.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Read it again like this. It must be made prior to {the runner returning to first base while the ball is live}. IOW - if the runner returns to first base while the ball is live, the appeal must be made before that happens. If the runner never returns to first base while the ball is live, then it can happen anytime. THIS way of reading it IS in line with the rule.

That's a pretty good stretch but it won't work. If the runner never returns to first while the ball is live but returns to first while the ball is dead it is also to late. The phrase while the ball is live ceases to mean anything in that context.
The supplement is just wrong. The appeal does not have to be made while the ball is live and the phrase should be struck.
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[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

No, it doesn't.

OK, I've finally figured out where you're misreading this. Read the rule again first. This is the rule. Now, read the RS again, parsing the sentence differently than it seems like you are parsing it.

"it must be made prior to the runner returning to first base while the ball is live."

You are reading this to mean it must be made prior to the runner returning; and separately that it must be made while the ball is live. I can see now how you got there, but this is NOT in line with the rule.

Read it again like this. It must be made prior to {the runner returning to first base while the ball is live}. IOW - if the runner returns to first base while the ball is live, the appeal must be made before that happens. If the runner never returns to first base while the ball is live, then it can happen anytime. THIS way of reading it IS in line with the rule.

You said it yourself --- These are not rules, they are explanations or clarifications. You should assume that if your reading of a clarification contradicts the actual rule, that you're reading it differently than they intended.

The quoted rule (8-2M-3) has one stipulation about an appeal on this particular play: Prior to the BR returning to first . There is no mention about the status of the ball, be it still live or dead (more specifically, both a live ball and dead ball appeal is permissible). If the BR advanced to 2B by award, it is still "prior" to the BR returning to first. Ok, all well and good, everyone of us has an out on the OP.

So why does this need a supplement? What is so difficult to understand about this rule, or what makes this rule any different (as in missing any other base) that would require it's own special mention in a rule (8-2-M) and it's own mention in the rule supplement #1? A BR may overrun 1B with being in jeopardy, which cannot happen at any other base. So we go to the rule supplement, . . it must be made prior to the runner returning to first while the ball is live . There is no contradiction from the rule, it now adds to the rule a specific condition, that of the status of the ball, to the exclusion of any dead ball appeals (if you mention one instance, you exclude the other instance).

FWIW, I am in agreement with Steve's analysis (after all, it is a missed base), and that there is a poor choice of wording. It should be written as:
To make a live ball appeal, the appeal must be made before the BR returns to first base. The appeal can also be made during a dead ball if the BR did not return to first base and advanced to another base.

[HugoTafurst]

(edited to add)
oops, I should have read other responses before I typed this, but I didn't so here it is in slightly different words.

Originally Posted by Big Slick

(snip)
"When an appeal is made in both situations (missing first base/touching incorrect color) it must be made prior to the runner returning to first base while the ball is live."

Again, this, literally, excludes any dead ball appeals.


(snip)
).

I think you are missing the forrest because of the trees....

This does not exclude a deadball appeal....

Let me see if this makes sense to you:

If the appeal is made while the ball is live, it must be made prior to the runner returning to the base.

Does that help?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

I think you are missing the forrest because of the trees....

This does not exclude a deadball appeal....

Let me see if this makes sense to you:

If the appeal is made while the ball is live, it must be made prior to the runner returning to the base.

Does that help?

If both these statements hold:
If the appeal is made while the ball is live, it must be made prior to the runner returning to the base.
If the appeal is made while the ball is not live, it must be made prior to the runner returning to the base.
Then there's a simpler way to say this:
The appeal must be made prior to the runner returning to the base.

But they didn't say that, so the question is why?
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[MD Longhorn]

Point taken ... on both counts.

I guess the long and short is ... the Rules Supplements are not the rules, and if they seem to add something or change something from the rules, then either they are worded poorly, we're reading them wrong, or they are just flat incorrect. As to why this rule needed an RS (a wrong one at that)... who knows... I don't think it did!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

FWIW, I am in agreement with Steve's analysis (after all, it is a missed base), and that there is a poor choice of wording. It should be written as:
To make a live ball appeal, the appeal must be made before the BR returns to first base. The appeal can also be made during a dead ball if the BR did not return to first base and advanced to another base.

And without going "Irish" on anyone, this is a no brainer. BY RULE, the runner still has not touched 1B and is liable to be retired via a proper live ball or dead ball appeal. Obviously, a live ball appeal is not available at this point.

RS#1.L applies when a runner is returning to 1B. The runner did not return to 1B, so this does not apply.

A missed base is a missed base. By rule, touching the wrong base is the same a missing a base and should be handled has such.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by youngump

That's a pretty good stretch but it won't work. If the runner never returns to first while the ball is live but returns to first while the ball is dead it is also to late. The phrase while the ball is live ceases to mean anything in that context.
The supplement is just wrong. The appeal does not have to be made while the ball is live and the phrase should be struck.

No, it means that a live ball appeal must occur before the runner returns. A missed base appeal is always allowed with a dead ball (given no other dead ball restrictions).

[youngump]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

No, it means that a live ball appeal must occur before the runner returns. A missed base appeal is always allowed with a dead ball (given no other dead ball restrictions).

It's not allowed if the runner returns. Though you suggest to me perhaps what they were trying for. A live ball appeal can occur before a returning runner returns but a dead ball appeal cannot.
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[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by youngump

It's not allowed if the runner returns. Though you suggest to me perhaps what they were trying for. A live ball appeal can occur before a returning runner returns but a dead ball appeal cannot.

Possibly semantics (as is this entire thread, truthfully), but both a live ball and a dead ball appeal can be made; the result just can't be an out if the runner being appealed has returned or is standing on the base being appealed. And, I submit that THAT is what the sentence in the RS is supposed to be telling us.

So, how is it different than any other missed base? Now, it isn't; but before the rule change to "one big base" after the BR passed first base, it did serve a purpose, if the runner returned to the "wrong" base. I submit this should have been a "housekeeping" editorial change at that time, but remains to confuse some (just like the "wreck" that is obstruction by definition).