Safety base

[MD Longhorn]

Um, Stu ... think it through. Are you really implying that a runner trying to get to first base FROM THE DIRECTION OF SECOND has to go to the orange bag to be safe? Logically, does that make any sense to you?

The rule you keep quoting SOLELY applies to plays being made on the batter-runner heading from the plate to first. In every other situation, the bag is just one big bag for both the offense and the defense.

[Stu Clary]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Um, Stu ... think it through. Are you really implying that a runner trying to get to first base FROM THE DIRECTION OF SECOND has to go to the orange bag to be safe? Logically, does that make any sense to you?

No, not at all. But I'm not talking about the baserunner. I'm saying that the defensive player is off the (white) bag.

[JefferMC]

BTW... Here's the most recent [in]famous ponytail/shoelace post.

Force Play

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Stu Clary

No, not at all. But I'm not talking about the baserunner. I'm saying that the defensive player is off the (white) bag.

The same rule that is telling you that the defensive player must use the white tells you that the offense must use the orange... while that's obviously not true in the OP. You can't insist that half of the rule applies when obviously the other half doesn't.

The safety bag is for SAFETY - for a BR coming from home and the first baseman. It's not meant as a gotcha on other plays.

[Stu Clary]

OK...but please cite a rule that suppoorts that.

I have been taught that the orange base is used by the batter/runner when trying the beat out a ground ball OR by the defense when the throw is coming from foul ground. I can point to specific places in the rulebook that support those two things. Otherwise, the orange/colored/foul portion of the double base is the same as dirt to me.

Maybe I'm a bonehead, but I still have safe.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Stu Clary

OK...but please cite a rule that suppoorts that.

I have been taught that the orange base is used by the batter/runner when trying the beat out a ground ball OR by the defense when the throw is coming from foul ground. I can point to specific places in the rulebook that support those two things. Otherwise, the orange/colored/foul portion of the double base is the same as dirt to me.

Maybe I'm a bonehead, but I still have safe.

You need to learn how to read the book. I'm not saying you should read it... you obviously have. you need to learn HOW to read it.

I'm not sure why you expect us to cite a rule that says "Don't apply rules that refer to the batter runner (8-2) to a normal runner". We're not going to be able to cite such a thing. But we keep telling you this rule applies to the batter-runner, and not the runner. I don't know what you want us to do to make you believe us.

8-2 says, "THE BATTER-RUNNER IS OUT"... then lists all the ways a batter-runner can be out. You're going to be in a heap of trouble if you try to apply rules from one section to unapplicable situations. We've told you repeatedly that this rule doesn't apply to a runner, and now you're asking for a rule citation to tell you not to apply rules from one section to a completely different situation? Next you'll want to apply 8-2-E to say a runner sliding into 2nd is out because they ran outside the running lane.

If you find anything regarding the safety base in 8-7 ("The RUNNER IS OUT"), please let us know. But you won't. The ONLY place in the rules where the orange and white sections are treated differently is in 8-2. Good luck finding something to support, "Otherwise, the orange/colored/foul portion of the double base is the same as dirt to me."

You say you just want to learn and get better, but you refuse to listen to anyone. I don't get it.

[Stu Clary]

Like I said, I'm a bonehead.

I see what you're saying. Thanks for the insight.

[surf24]

My take has always been that the "orange" bag is only "orange" when the batter is trying to beat out the throw. Any other time it is just one big base.



In fact, just last week in a coed game........I was playing first and a girl was on first, guy batting hits a liner right back at the pitcher who caught it and I run to 1B and catch the ball with my foot making contact with the "orange" bag just before the runner gets back to the white........I did not intentionally aim for that bag---just the base. This is a similar play as to what the OG posted -- yes?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

You need to learn how to read the book. I'm not saying you should read it... you obviously have. you need to learn HOW to read it....etc.

I think you're over-scolding here, Mike. The treatment of the orange base as just another part of foul territory WAS the way the rule was called up until a few years ago.

Also, ASA does not do a particularly good job of stating that the safety (sic) base is just one big base for both the offense and the defense once the BR becomes a runner.

Even in the past when the orange bag was treated as dirt for "runner is ..." calls, the safety (sic) base was not directly mentioned beyond the BR rules.

The issue in the situation discussed is not whether the runner has to touch the orange bag, but whether the defense CAN use it for a live ball appeal. That is how the rule is interpreted (one big base), but please, in the ASA rule book, find a rule cite for that.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I think you're over-scolding here, Mike. The treatment of the orange base as just another part of foul territory WAS the way the rule was called up until a few years ago.

Also, ASA does not do a particularly good job of stating that the safety (sic) base is just one big base for both the offense and the defense once the BR becomes a runner.

Even in the past when the orange bag was treated as dirt for "runner is ..." calls, the safety (sic) base was not directly mentioned beyond the BR rules.

The issue in the situation discussed is not whether the runner has to touch the orange bag, but whether the defense CAN use it for a live ball appeal. That is how the rule is interpreted (one big base), but please, in the ASA rule book, find a rule cite for that.

Tom - if I was over-scolding, I apologize. I just felt like we were all saying the same thing, while the poster kept saying he insisted on believing something else but wanted to learn. My bad if I was over the top. (Not the first time, won't be the last).

To "prove" the point in ASA, you have to look at the section regarding the field (where the rule simply called the base a double base). It's just a base - same as all the rest except for it's size ... in every respect EXCEPT where specifically noted (meaning rule 8-2).

IOW - don't make the assumption that there's a reason to treat the base halves differently except in the singular case where we are told to do so.

Interestingly I do remember getting in a rather heated discussion at a clinic, back when the orange base WAS dirt, where I and about 6 others insisted the clinician had no rules backing for his assertion that the orange base was dirt. The only resolution we ever got to that was along the lines of "Just do what you're told."

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I think you're over-scolding here, Mike. The treatment of the orange base as just another part of foul territory WAS the way the rule was called up until a few years ago.

Also, ASA does not do a particularly good job of stating that the safety (sic) base is just one big base for both the offense and the defense once the BR becomes a runner.

Actually, it does. 2.3.H clearly states the first base is 15" X 30". Let me say that again. First base is 15" X 30". Unless a rule cites an exception as to which portion of the bag is to be used when, then and only then does it make a difference. I do NOT believe you will find any such exception outside of rule 8.2.M which is exclusive to the batter-runner. Stu should also check the last sentence of 8.2.M.6.

Even in the past when the orange bag was treated as dirt for "runner is ..." calls, the safety (sic) base was not directly mentioned beyond the BR rules.

The issue in the situation discussed is not whether the runner has to touch the orange bag, but whether the defense CAN use it for a live ball appeal. That is how the rule is interpreted (one big base), but please, in the ASA rule book, find a rule cite for that.

See above. Why would you need a separate rule telling you about using a base when it is defined as a multicolored base of 15"X30"? That's like including a rule that states a pitch which hits the bat after hitting the batter's helmet is not a batter ball.

Rule book is big enough without constantly proving the obvious. It's like my wife calling me from the store last week to tell me what she wasn't buying!!!

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Stu Clary

OK...but please cite a rule that suppoorts that.

I have been taught that the orange base is used by the batter/runner when trying the beat out a ground ball OR by the defense when the throw is coming from foul ground. I can point to specific places in the rulebook that support those two things. Otherwise, the orange/colored/foul portion of the double base is the same as dirt to me.

Maybe I'm a bonehead, but I still have safe.

Stu, hope this is enough of a citation for you as obviously mb's and Irish's detailed, rule supported, logical, and common sense based replies were not satisfactory enough for you.....

2010 ASA UMPIRE CLINIC GUIDE

Rule 2 FIELD
Double Base:Rule 2 Section 3H and Rule 8, Section 2M
The Double Base is mandatory for all divisions of play.

A) The double base will be 15 x 30 inches with half the base in fair territory and half in foul territory.

B) When using the double base, the following should be remembered:

1) When a play is being made on the batter-runner by any fielder the fielder must use the white portion (fair territory) and the batter-runner must use the contrasting color portion (foul territory) with the following exceptions:

2) On an errant throw pulling the defense into foul territory the defense can use the portion of the base in foul territory and the batter-runner can use the white portion of the base.

3) On any force out from the foul side of first base the batter-runner can use the white portion (fair territory) and the fielder can use the contrasting color portion (foul territory) of the base.

4) After the batter-runner has reached first base, BOTH the batter-runner AND the fielder can use either color of the base for ANY defensive or offensive play.

The Clinic Guide closes the section on the Double Base with this:
"Bottom line: Before the batter-runner reaches 1B and a play is being made the base is 15 in.X30 in. Once the batter-runner has reached 1B the base becomes 30 in. X 30 in."

[txump81]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Before the batter-runner reaches 1B and a play is being made the base is 15 in.X30 in. Once the batter-runner has reached 1B the base becomes 30 in. X 30 in."[/B]

30x30---Holy Toledo Batman That is one large base...or now we allow the neighborhood at 1B so this whole long argument is moot. It doesn't matter where you touch the base--just get close. So do you get 8in extra in front or in back or do you get the extra 15 in anywhere.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

The Clinic Guide closes the section on the Double Base with this:
"Bottom line: Before the batter-runner reaches 1B and a play is being made the base is 15 in.X30 in. Once the batter-runner has reached 1B the base becomes 30 in. X 30 in."

What a way to lose all credibility in a single sentence. The base is NEVER 30" X 30".

This must have been put in here by the same person that uttered the phrase "double re-entry" when that rule was change!

[CecilOne]

This entire topic says the clinic guide quote
"4) After the batter-runner has reached first base, BOTH the batter-runner AND the fielder can use either color of the base for ANY defensive or offensive play."

Maybe it should be added as a note to the OP for new readers to save time.