Safety base

[Stu Clary]

OK...but please cite a rule that suppoorts that.

I have been taught that the orange base is used by the batter/runner when trying the beat out a ground ball OR by the defense when the throw is coming from foul ground. I can point to specific places in the rulebook that support those two things. Otherwise, the orange/colored/foul portion of the double base is the same as dirt to me.

Maybe I'm a bonehead, but I still have safe.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Stu Clary

OK...but please cite a rule that suppoorts that.

I have been taught that the orange base is used by the batter/runner when trying the beat out a ground ball OR by the defense when the throw is coming from foul ground. I can point to specific places in the rulebook that support those two things. Otherwise, the orange/colored/foul portion of the double base is the same as dirt to me.

Maybe I'm a bonehead, but I still have safe.

You need to learn how to read the book. I'm not saying you should read it... you obviously have. you need to learn HOW to read it.

I'm not sure why you expect us to cite a rule that says "Don't apply rules that refer to the batter runner (8-2) to a normal runner". We're not going to be able to cite such a thing. But we keep telling you this rule applies to the batter-runner, and not the runner. I don't know what you want us to do to make you believe us.

8-2 says, "THE BATTER-RUNNER IS OUT"... then lists all the ways a batter-runner can be out. You're going to be in a heap of trouble if you try to apply rules from one section to unapplicable situations. We've told you repeatedly that this rule doesn't apply to a runner, and now you're asking for a rule citation to tell you not to apply rules from one section to a completely different situation? Next you'll want to apply 8-2-E to say a runner sliding into 2nd is out because they ran outside the running lane.

If you find anything regarding the safety base in 8-7 ("The RUNNER IS OUT"), please let us know. But you won't. The ONLY place in the rules where the orange and white sections are treated differently is in 8-2. Good luck finding something to support, "Otherwise, the orange/colored/foul portion of the double base is the same as dirt to me."

You say you just want to learn and get better, but you refuse to listen to anyone. I don't get it.

[Stu Clary]

Like I said, I'm a bonehead.

I see what you're saying. Thanks for the insight.

[surf24]

My take has always been that the "orange" bag is only "orange" when the batter is trying to beat out the throw. Any other time it is just one big base.



In fact, just last week in a coed game........I was playing first and a girl was on first, guy batting hits a liner right back at the pitcher who caught it and I run to 1B and catch the ball with my foot making contact with the "orange" bag just before the runner gets back to the white........I did not intentionally aim for that bag---just the base. This is a similar play as to what the OG posted -- yes?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

You need to learn how to read the book. I'm not saying you should read it... you obviously have. you need to learn HOW to read it....etc.

I think you're over-scolding here, Mike. The treatment of the orange base as just another part of foul territory WAS the way the rule was called up until a few years ago.

Also, ASA does not do a particularly good job of stating that the safety (sic) base is just one big base for both the offense and the defense once the BR becomes a runner.

Even in the past when the orange bag was treated as dirt for "runner is ..." calls, the safety (sic) base was not directly mentioned beyond the BR rules.

The issue in the situation discussed is not whether the runner has to touch the orange bag, but whether the defense CAN use it for a live ball appeal. That is how the rule is interpreted (one big base), but please, in the ASA rule book, find a rule cite for that.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I think you're over-scolding here, Mike. The treatment of the orange base as just another part of foul territory WAS the way the rule was called up until a few years ago.

Also, ASA does not do a particularly good job of stating that the safety (sic) base is just one big base for both the offense and the defense once the BR becomes a runner.

Even in the past when the orange bag was treated as dirt for "runner is ..." calls, the safety (sic) base was not directly mentioned beyond the BR rules.

The issue in the situation discussed is not whether the runner has to touch the orange bag, but whether the defense CAN use it for a live ball appeal. That is how the rule is interpreted (one big base), but please, in the ASA rule book, find a rule cite for that.

Tom - if I was over-scolding, I apologize. I just felt like we were all saying the same thing, while the poster kept saying he insisted on believing something else but wanted to learn. My bad if I was over the top. (Not the first time, won't be the last).

To "prove" the point in ASA, you have to look at the section regarding the field (where the rule simply called the base a double base). It's just a base - same as all the rest except for it's size ... in every respect EXCEPT where specifically noted (meaning rule 8-2).

IOW - don't make the assumption that there's a reason to treat the base halves differently except in the singular case where we are told to do so.

Interestingly I do remember getting in a rather heated discussion at a clinic, back when the orange base WAS dirt, where I and about 6 others insisted the clinician had no rules backing for his assertion that the orange base was dirt. The only resolution we ever got to that was along the lines of "Just do what you're told."

[surf24]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

"Just do what you're told."

I do not like this.......I like sound reasons......it's like when your parents used to say "because I said so."

[Welpe]

This was a lot simpler when there was just one base color to deal with.

[surf24]

Originally Posted by Welpe

This was a lot simpler when there was just one base color to deal with.

true statement......although I never played then.......that I remember anyway.

[illiniwek8]

WOW...that was a great response....except for the part where I was wrong! Dangit....I was hoping for confirmation that I was right....OOPS...at least now I have greater insight as to why I will get this call right in the future.....so the DEFENSE CAN utilize the orange bag to complete an out as described........the runner in my caseplay is OUT!!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I think you're over-scolding here, Mike. The treatment of the orange base as just another part of foul territory WAS the way the rule was called up until a few years ago.

Also, ASA does not do a particularly good job of stating that the safety (sic) base is just one big base for both the offense and the defense once the BR becomes a runner.

Actually, it does. 2.3.H clearly states the first base is 15" X 30". Let me say that again. First base is 15" X 30". Unless a rule cites an exception as to which portion of the bag is to be used when, then and only then does it make a difference. I do NOT believe you will find any such exception outside of rule 8.2.M which is exclusive to the batter-runner. Stu should also check the last sentence of 8.2.M.6.

Even in the past when the orange bag was treated as dirt for "runner is ..." calls, the safety (sic) base was not directly mentioned beyond the BR rules.

The issue in the situation discussed is not whether the runner has to touch the orange bag, but whether the defense CAN use it for a live ball appeal. That is how the rule is interpreted (one big base), but please, in the ASA rule book, find a rule cite for that.

See above. Why would you need a separate rule telling you about using a base when it is defined as a multicolored base of 15"X30"? That's like including a rule that states a pitch which hits the bat after hitting the batter's helmet is not a batter ball.

Rule book is big enough without constantly proving the obvious. It's like my wife calling me from the store last week to tell me what she wasn't buying!!!

[Stu Clary]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Stu should also check the last sentence of 8.2.M.6.

Bingo.

It's like my wife calling me from the store last week to tell me what she wasn't buying!!!

Mine does that a lot. I always thank her.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Actually, it does. 2.3.H clearly states the first base is 15" X 30"....

I'll leave your domestic conversations to between you and your wife, but this is exactly what I meant. Rule 2 defines the dimensions and placements of the components of the playing field, not the rules use of the field. To leave the clear statement that this is one big base of all purposes except BR to be inferred from the dimensions is, as I said, not clearly stating it. Apparently, it is not quite as obvious as you claim if it had to be stated clearly in the umpire clinic guide, whose intended audience is the most experienced umpires in ASA whose job is to teach other umpires. I guess they needed it to be clearly stated, not left to be inferred from the dimensions. Is it asking too much to add the statement from the clinic guide so all of us non-clinicians can read it, too? Especially since this was a change in interpretation (not change in dimension or placement)?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I'll leave your domestic conversations to between you and your wife, but this is exactly what I meant. Rule 2 defines the dimensions and placements of the components of the playing field, not the rules use of the field. To leave the clear statement that this is one big base of all purposes except BR to be inferred from the dimensions is, as I said, not clearly stating it. Apparently, it is not quite as obvious as you claim if it had to be stated clearly in the umpire clinic guide, whose intended audience is the most experienced umpires in ASA whose job is to teach other umpires. I guess they needed it to be clearly stated, not left to be inferred from the dimensions. Is it asking too much to add the statement from the clinic guide so all of us non-clinicians can read it, too? Especially since this was a change in interpretation (not change in dimension or placement)?

Okay, the base is 15" X 30". Touch the base before being put out, you are safe. Tagging a base before the runner gets there, the runner is out.

Doesn't get simpler than that. If you are an umpire, it is YOUR responsibility to read and understand the rules. I will NOT support anything which adds to the stupification of America. The only things which needs clarification is the exception to the norm and that is done in 8.2.M

It is bad enough there has to be a special piece of equipment because the coaches and players are not smart enough to respectively coach and play the position properly.

[KJUmp]

Being as how the clinic guide is on the same CD with the casebook, I would think ASA wanted to make the intended audience any ASA umpire who wanted to invest $15.00 for the CD to expand their understanding of the rules, and not just clinicians.
Umpiring in an area where our ASA organization is not proactive in conducting clinics, I've found the CD to be a great help and well worth the money.