Safety base

[surf24]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

"Just do what you're told."

I do not like this.......I like sound reasons......it's like when your parents used to say "because I said so."

[Welpe]

This was a lot simpler when there was just one base color to deal with.

[surf24]

Originally Posted by Welpe

This was a lot simpler when there was just one base color to deal with.

true statement......although I never played then.......that I remember anyway.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I think you're over-scolding here, Mike. The treatment of the orange base as just another part of foul territory WAS the way the rule was called up until a few years ago.

Also, ASA does not do a particularly good job of stating that the safety (sic) base is just one big base for both the offense and the defense once the BR becomes a runner.

Actually, it does. 2.3.H clearly states the first base is 15" X 30". Let me say that again. First base is 15" X 30". Unless a rule cites an exception as to which portion of the bag is to be used when, then and only then does it make a difference. I do NOT believe you will find any such exception outside of rule 8.2.M which is exclusive to the batter-runner. Stu should also check the last sentence of 8.2.M.6.

Even in the past when the orange bag was treated as dirt for "runner is ..." calls, the safety (sic) base was not directly mentioned beyond the BR rules.

The issue in the situation discussed is not whether the runner has to touch the orange bag, but whether the defense CAN use it for a live ball appeal. That is how the rule is interpreted (one big base), but please, in the ASA rule book, find a rule cite for that.

See above. Why would you need a separate rule telling you about using a base when it is defined as a multicolored base of 15"X30"? That's like including a rule that states a pitch which hits the bat after hitting the batter's helmet is not a batter ball.

Rule book is big enough without constantly proving the obvious. It's like my wife calling me from the store last week to tell me what she wasn't buying!!!

[Stu Clary]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Stu should also check the last sentence of 8.2.M.6.

Bingo.

It's like my wife calling me from the store last week to tell me what she wasn't buying!!!

Mine does that a lot. I always thank her.

[illiniwek8]

WOW...that was a great response....except for the part where I was wrong! Dangit....I was hoping for confirmation that I was right....OOPS...at least now I have greater insight as to why I will get this call right in the future.....so the DEFENSE CAN utilize the orange bag to complete an out as described........the runner in my caseplay is OUT!!

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Stu Clary

OK...but please cite a rule that suppoorts that.

I have been taught that the orange base is used by the batter/runner when trying the beat out a ground ball OR by the defense when the throw is coming from foul ground. I can point to specific places in the rulebook that support those two things. Otherwise, the orange/colored/foul portion of the double base is the same as dirt to me.

Maybe I'm a bonehead, but I still have safe.

Stu, hope this is enough of a citation for you as obviously mb's and Irish's detailed, rule supported, logical, and common sense based replies were not satisfactory enough for you.....

2010 ASA UMPIRE CLINIC GUIDE

Rule 2 FIELD
Double Base:Rule 2 Section 3H and Rule 8, Section 2M
The Double Base is mandatory for all divisions of play.

A) The double base will be 15 x 30 inches with half the base in fair territory and half in foul territory.

B) When using the double base, the following should be remembered:

1) When a play is being made on the batter-runner by any fielder the fielder must use the white portion (fair territory) and the batter-runner must use the contrasting color portion (foul territory) with the following exceptions:

2) On an errant throw pulling the defense into foul territory the defense can use the portion of the base in foul territory and the batter-runner can use the white portion of the base.

3) On any force out from the foul side of first base the batter-runner can use the white portion (fair territory) and the fielder can use the contrasting color portion (foul territory) of the base.

4) After the batter-runner has reached first base, BOTH the batter-runner AND the fielder can use either color of the base for ANY defensive or offensive play.

The Clinic Guide closes the section on the Double Base with this:
"Bottom line: Before the batter-runner reaches 1B and a play is being made the base is 15 in.X30 in. Once the batter-runner has reached 1B the base becomes 30 in. X 30 in."

[txump81]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Before the batter-runner reaches 1B and a play is being made the base is 15 in.X30 in. Once the batter-runner has reached 1B the base becomes 30 in. X 30 in."[/B]

30x30---Holy Toledo Batman That is one large base...or now we allow the neighborhood at 1B so this whole long argument is moot. It doesn't matter where you touch the base--just get close. So do you get 8in extra in front or in back or do you get the extra 15 in anywhere.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

The Clinic Guide closes the section on the Double Base with this:
"Bottom line: Before the batter-runner reaches 1B and a play is being made the base is 15 in.X30 in. Once the batter-runner has reached 1B the base becomes 30 in. X 30 in."

What a way to lose all credibility in a single sentence. The base is NEVER 30" X 30".

This must have been put in here by the same person that uttered the phrase "double re-entry" when that rule was change!

[CecilOne]

This entire topic says the clinic guide quote
"4) After the batter-runner has reached first base, BOTH the batter-runner AND the fielder can use either color of the base for ANY defensive or offensive play."

Maybe it should be added as a note to the OP for new readers to save time.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

What a way to lose all credibility in a single sentence. The base is NEVER 30" X 30".

This must have been put in here by the same person that uttered the phrase "double re-entry" when that rule was change!

Irish,
I know from reading your posts that you have more contact with the folks that write/publish our ASA training materials than probably anyone else on this board. Do they ever listen to feedback on stuff like this when you bring it to their attention?

[Stu Clary]

Wow. In post #37 of this thread, KJ writes...

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Stu, hope this is enough of a citation for you as obviously mb's and Irish's detailed, rule supported, logical, and common sense based replies were not satisfactory enough for you.....

Damn. Isn't that a bit harsh? Especially considering the fact that I realized I had the rule wrong by post #27?

Originally Posted by Stu Clary

Like I said, I'm a bonehead.

I see what you're saying. Thanks for the insight.

Anyway, mission accomplished. You can be sure that I'll get this sitch right should it come up this weekend!

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Actually, it does. 2.3.H clearly states the first base is 15" X 30"....

I'll leave your domestic conversations to between you and your wife, but this is exactly what I meant. Rule 2 defines the dimensions and placements of the components of the playing field, not the rules use of the field. To leave the clear statement that this is one big base of all purposes except BR to be inferred from the dimensions is, as I said, not clearly stating it. Apparently, it is not quite as obvious as you claim if it had to be stated clearly in the umpire clinic guide, whose intended audience is the most experienced umpires in ASA whose job is to teach other umpires. I guess they needed it to be clearly stated, not left to be inferred from the dimensions. Is it asking too much to add the statement from the clinic guide so all of us non-clinicians can read it, too? Especially since this was a change in interpretation (not change in dimension or placement)?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I'll leave your domestic conversations to between you and your wife, but this is exactly what I meant. Rule 2 defines the dimensions and placements of the components of the playing field, not the rules use of the field. To leave the clear statement that this is one big base of all purposes except BR to be inferred from the dimensions is, as I said, not clearly stating it. Apparently, it is not quite as obvious as you claim if it had to be stated clearly in the umpire clinic guide, whose intended audience is the most experienced umpires in ASA whose job is to teach other umpires. I guess they needed it to be clearly stated, not left to be inferred from the dimensions. Is it asking too much to add the statement from the clinic guide so all of us non-clinicians can read it, too? Especially since this was a change in interpretation (not change in dimension or placement)?

Okay, the base is 15" X 30". Touch the base before being put out, you are safe. Tagging a base before the runner gets there, the runner is out.

Doesn't get simpler than that. If you are an umpire, it is YOUR responsibility to read and understand the rules. I will NOT support anything which adds to the stupification of America. The only things which needs clarification is the exception to the norm and that is done in 8.2.M

It is bad enough there has to be a special piece of equipment because the coaches and players are not smart enough to respectively coach and play the position properly.

[KJUmp]

Being as how the clinic guide is on the same CD with the casebook, I would think ASA wanted to make the intended audience any ASA umpire who wanted to invest $15.00 for the CD to expand their understanding of the rules, and not just clinicians.
Umpiring in an area where our ASA organization is not proactive in conducting clinics, I've found the CD to be a great help and well worth the money.