The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 10, 2010, 02:06pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 8,033
Multiple Obstructions

This came up a few years ago, and I posted it then - generating some lively discussion. It came up again while sitting under the Umpire Tree last week, so I thought I'd see if it generates any new thoughts this time around...

No one on base, B hits the ball between the outfielders. As she's rounding first, F3 is standing on the bag. BU rules and signals obstruction, mentally noting that this runner would have gotten to third base without the obstruction.

B rounding 2nd, and the throw, heading from CF to a deep SS, is dropped by the SS. While rounding 2nd, she collides with an inattentive F4 watching the play. BU resignals the obstruction, and based on where the ball is and where the runner is, again decides that based on this OBS alone, she should get 3rd.

Runner slides safely into third base.

PU and BU discuss, and both had the same awards - but both feel that had NEITHER obstruction occured, AND the misplay at F6 happened as it did, this runner likely would have scored.

What do you do?
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'”

West Houston Mike
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 10, 2010, 02:14pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: East Central, FL
Posts: 1,042
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
This came up a few years ago, and I posted it then - generating some lively discussion. It came up again while sitting under the Umpire Tree last week, so I thought I'd see if it generates any new thoughts this time around...

No one on base, B hits the ball between the outfielders. As she's rounding first, F3 is standing on the bag. BU rules and signals obstruction, mentally noting that this runner would have gotten to third base without the obstruction.

B rounding 2nd, and the throw, heading from CF to a deep SS, is dropped by the SS. While rounding 2nd, she collides with an inattentive F4 watching the play. BU resignals the obstruction, and based on where the ball is and where the runner is, again decides that based on this OBS alone, she should get 3rd.

Runner slides safely into third base.

PU and BU discuss, and both had the same awards - but both feel that had NEITHER obstruction occured, AND the misplay at F6 happened as it did, this runner likely would have scored.

What do you do?
Score the run.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 10, 2010, 02:27pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 8,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by HugoTafurst View Post
Score the run.
Which ruleset, and by what rule do you get there?
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'”

West Houston Mike
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 10, 2010, 02:59pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Twin Cities MN
Posts: 8,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
...PU and BU discuss, and both had the same awards - but both feel that had NEITHER obstruction occurred, AND the misplay at F6 happened as it did, this runner likely would have scored.

What do you do?
The obstruction training / application from ASA (the part about determining the award at the time of the OBS) does not take into account the cumulative effect of multiple acts of OBS. The written black-and-white rule clearly states that the umpire is to award the base or bases that would have been reached had there been no obstruction (ASA 8-5-B-4 EFFECT). Therefore, given the umpire team's judgment as you stated above, award home.
__________________
Tom
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 10, 2010, 03:04pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: East Central, FL
Posts: 1,042
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota View Post
The obstruction training / application from ASA (the part about determining the award at the time of the OBS) does not take into account the cumulative effect of multiple acts of OBS. The written black-and-white rule clearly states that the umpire is to award the base or bases that would have been reached had there been no obstruction (ASA 8-5-B-4 EFFECT). Therefore, given the umpire team's judgment as you stated above, award home.

Thank you

Case closed. protest fee is $200.00
I'll accept their ruling.

Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 10, 2010, 05:47pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
This came up a few years ago, and I posted it then - generating some lively discussion. It came up again while sitting under the Umpire Tree last week, so I thought I'd see if it generates any new thoughts this time around...

No one on base, B hits the ball between the outfielders. As she's rounding first, F3 is standing on the bag. BU rules and signals obstruction, mentally noting that this runner would have gotten to third base without the obstruction.

B rounding 2nd, and the throw, heading from CF to a deep SS, is dropped by the SS. While rounding 2nd, she collides with an inattentive F4 watching the play. BU resignals the obstruction, and based on where the ball is and where the runner is, again decides that based on this OBS alone, she should get 3rd.

Runner slides safely into third base.

PU and BU discuss, and both had the same awards - but both feel that had NEITHER obstruction occured, AND the misplay at F6 happened as it did, this runner likely would have scored.

What do you do?
Speaking ASA

Announce the OBS, leave her at 3B and hustle into position.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 10, 2010, 08:01pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: north central Pa
Posts: 2,360
iF I've got the obstructed runner getting 3B, and she's obstructed again, I'm going to likely be more generous in what I think she'd have made without either obstruction having happened. Chances are, I'll award home.
__________________
Steve M
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 11, 2010, 08:22am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 8,033
Mike made my point. By gut, what you want to do (and a few of you have said so) is send her home... but by rule, she gets 3rd. Contrary to what Dakota sais above, we are NOT supposed to take post-obstruction evidence into account (like most baseball codes)... that post is not accurate. OBS awards are not cumulative. On EACH obstruction individually, the award was 3rd. You can't take the bobble into account to revise the first OBS's award, and the 2nd OBS happened after the bobble.

The award is 3rd.
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'”

West Houston Mike
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 11, 2010, 08:41am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Twin Cities MN
Posts: 8,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
...and the 2nd OBS happened after the bobble....
Hence, the misplay is pertinent to the base(s) awarded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
OBS awards are not cumulative.
Rule citation?
__________________
Tom
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 11, 2010, 08:50am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 8,033
The 2nd OBS happened after the bobble - and taking that into consideration, the award was third.

Not sure how one would have a rule citation to prove a negative. The OBS rule tells you what to rule when you see obstruction. There's no language at all anywhere that one could even mildly infer that one should take something that happened before the OBS into account, and case plays tell us not to take something that happened after the OBS into account... so I think you'd need to cite a rule reference to backup an opinion that they should be cumulative.
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'”

West Houston Mike
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 11, 2010, 08:57am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Twin Cities MN
Posts: 8,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
... so I think you'd need to cite a rule reference to backup an opinion that they should be cumulative.
ASA 8-5-B-4
Quote:
EFFECT: The obstructed runner and all other runners shall always be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached, in the umpire’s judgment, had there been no obstruction.
In your own description, the judgment of the umpires was that had there been no obstruction, the runner would have scored.
__________________
Tom
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 11, 2010, 09:18am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Speaking ASA

Announce the OBS, leave her at 3B and hustle into position.
Please document why.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 11, 2010, 09:33am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
The OP is not clear as to which came first, OBS F4 or bobble. Also, not clear which side of 2nd the OBS F4 was.
The runner made 3rd w/o any award.

The crux seems to be that if the runner had not reached 2nd when the throw reached SS, she would not have made 3rd w/o the bobble. Then, it's a question of whether the OBS F3 caused that delay or just a slow runner. If slow and not the OBS F3, then no award at all, even if she stops at 2nd.
If that was caused by the OBS F3 and ITUJ, she would have reached 3rd, then the OBS F4 matters. But, given "the runner had not reached 2nd when the throw reached SS", judging that she would have reached HP, even with the bobble, seems a real reach.
However, if the OBS were major, and the SS still had not controlled the ball when she reached 3rd, and there was some indication she would have tried for home without the OBS, then a very tough call.


Besides, BU always hustle to position after a play!
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 11, 2010, 11:22am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post

No one on base, B hits the ball between the outfielders. As she's rounding first, F3 is standing on the bag. BU rules and signals obstruction, mentally noting that this runner would have gotten to third base without the obstruction.[

B rounding 2nd, and the throw, heading from CF to a deep SS, is dropped by the SS. While rounding 2nd, she collides with an inattentive F4 watching the play. BU resignals the obstruction, and based on where the ball is and where the runner is, again decides that based on this OBS alone, she should get 3rd.

Runner slides safely into third base.

PU and BU discuss, and both had the same awards - but both feel that had NEITHER obstruction occured, AND the misplay at F6 happened as it did, this runner likely would have scored.

What do you do?
Am I the only person who noticed the umpire in the OP judged 3B until talking to the PU? According to the rule quoted by Tom, there is no more discussion available here.

You can "what if" until hell freezes over, the BU made an assessment of 3B AFTER all action, initial and subsequent, occurred.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 11, 2010, 11:43am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 257
"No one on base, B hits the ball between the outfielders. As she's rounding first, F3 is standing on the bag. BU rules and signals obstruction, mentally noting that this runner would have gotten to third base without the obstruction."

WOW so if the second OBS did not occur the umpire was going to award 3rd for the fielder standing on 1st. HTBT situation, but I would not I would not make that judgment until the play fully developed.

As for the OP. Call obs, award 3rd and get ready for the next pitch. Or, if she did try to go home make the judgment at the time she was tagged out or nothing if she made it home.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Multiple forums??? DownTownTonyBrown General / Off-Topic 10 Sat Aug 28, 2004 08:24pm
Multiple Foul? Nu1 Basketball 7 Mon Mar 08, 2004 11:44am
Multiple T's BoomerSooner Basketball 6 Fri Feb 27, 2004 01:53am
Multiple Foul golfdesigner Basketball 9 Thu Feb 19, 2004 04:46pm
Multiple fouls bseybs32 Basketball 3 Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:27am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:25am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1