Infield fly/force out?

[RonA]

Here is the situation: (ASA rules, by the way)

Bases loaded, 1 out. IF rule in effect. BR hits pop-up to F3 who consequently drops ball (of course!) BR out on IF fly. R3 on 3rd leaves 3rd to try and score, while R2 trys to get to 3rd. Question is, is there a force at home?

Saw it ruled as such and wondered about it.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by RonA

Here is the situation: (ASA rules, by the way)

Bases loaded, 1 out. IF rule in effect. BR hits pop-up to F3 who consequently drops ball (of course!) BR out on IF fly. R3 on 3rd leaves 3rd to try and score, while R2 trys to get to 3rd. Question is, is there a force at home?

Saw it ruled as such and wondered about it.

Once the batter-runner is retired, no runners are ever forced to advance to the next base.

So no, there is no force.

[RonA]

Once the batter-runner is retired, no runners are ever forced to advance to the next base.

Right, I understand that. But, given that the runner on 2nd and the runner on 3rd were advancing (or trying to) at their own risk, wouldn't the runner at home be forced? The runner going from 2nd to 3rd forced the runner on 3rd to make the try for home.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by RonA

Right, I understand that. But, given that the runner on 2nd and the runner on 3rd were advancing (or trying to) at their own risk, wouldn't the runner at home be forced? The runner going from 2nd to 3rd forced the runner on 3rd to make the try for home.

That's not how runners are forced. Let's see how I can explain a "force..."

If the batter-runner is not yet out, the batter-runner is forced to advance to first base. In doing so, runners are forced to attempt to advance if doing so is the only way the runner behind them can attempt to safely advance to the next base without having two runners on the same base.

Does that make sense?

So if the batter-runner is retired, there is no one forcing the runner on 1st base to advance to 2nd. That then means there is no one forcing the runner on 2nd base to advance to 3rd.

There's also this:

ASA 8-3-E: Two runners may not occupy the same base at the same time.
EFFECT: The runner who first legally occupied the base is entitled to that base, unless forced to advance. The other runner may be put out by being tagged with the ball.

[RonA]

OK, so the runner at 2nd is not forced. But, when R2 advances to 3rd, isn't R3 forced at HP, because R2 reaches 3rd?

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by RonA

Right, I understand that. But...

Well, Ron, apparently you don't!

Whenever the batter-runner is retired before safely reaching first base, for any reason, ALL force plays are removed. And we're talking about real, genuine, by-the-book "force plays" as defined in the rule book.

You're describing a play where a runner might be smart to advance, or might want to avoid a situation where two runners are on one base, or might just happen to move toward the next base. But none of those are honest-to-goodness "force plays" for the purpose of the rules.

The defense tagging the base with the ball ahead of any of these runners won't yield an out. Since the batter-runner was out before reaching first base, and since that removes all force plays, the defense needs to actually tag a runner while he's off his base get an out here.

Originally Posted by RonA

OK, so the runner at 2nd is not forced. But, when R2 advances to 3rd, isn't R3 forced at HP, because R2 reaches 3rd?

Nope.

Remember...none of the runners are forced to advance on this play. If R2 advances to third and R3 is still standing on the bag, it is R2 who is liable to be put out. When there are no force plays, the lead runner may legally occupy his base. It is the trailing runner who is liable to be put out.

The trail runner could be tagged while not in contact with third for an out...OR...the trail runner could be tagged out while standing ON third base at the same time as the lead runner. Only one runner is entitled to occupy one base and, on this play, that one runner is the lead runner.

If there ARE force outs to be had, then that changes. Let's suppose that instead of hitting an Infield Fly (which removed all of the force outs) the batter had singled. Now, there ARE force outs available at every single base. That means that R3 IS forced to advance on this play.

If R3 and R2 are both standing on third, it is the lead runner who can be tagged out. By being forced to advance, the lead runner loses all protection from being put out that touching a base normally affords. When actually forced to advance, which runner can be tagged out while touching the base is totally opposite than when they aren't forced to advance.

It sounds kind of confusing, but isn't as confusing once you understand the rule book definition of a "force out". A lot hinges on that definition on these plays!

[RonA]

Bret,

Thank you for that. That was what I was getting at. It was the intitial out that ended the force play, and since there was no tag at HP, the runner was safe, and the call was wrong. The argument I was giving here was the argument that was given to me by the plate blue when I questioned her about it.

[BuggBob]

There are some leagues that have a rule that all plays at the plate are a force. If that is the case then the umpire would have been correct.

Bugg

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by RonA

Right, I understand that. But, given that the runner on 2nd and the runner on 3rd were advancing (or trying to) at their own risk, wouldn't the runner at home be forced? The runner going from 2nd to 3rd forced the runner on 3rd to make the try for home.

Ask yourself... can they return to their original bases?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BuggBob

There are some leagues that have a rule that all plays at the plate are a force. If that is the case then the umpire would have been correct.

Bugg

Iggg. Wow. I've worked a LOT of different rulesets and made up league rules... but only in Calvinball is every play at the plate a force. Seems a rather absurd rule... R1 on 3rd takes a lead off on the pitch, catcher catches the pitch and steps on home. She's OUT!

[celebur]

It wasn't by any chance co-ed slo-pitch?

[JefferMC]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Iggg. Wow. I've worked a LOT of different rulesets and made up league rules... but only in Calvinball is every play at the plate a force. Seems a rather absurd rule... R1 on 3rd takes a lead off on the pitch, catcher catches the pitch and steps on home. She's OUT!

I've heard of it in Senior Slow Pitch. Trying to prevent collisions (and broken hips). I think it's stupid, but I've heard of it.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

I've heard of it in Senior Slow Pitch. Trying to prevent collisions (and broken hips). I think it's stupid, but I've heard of it.

Yes, but that's only after they pass a commitment line 20 feet from home plate.

[surf24]

Po dunk park rules.........aren't they fun?

lol