Courtesy runner in top of the 1st

[CecilOne]

The OP is not a future or projected substitution. Future or projected substitution are cases where a sub will replace a player who will still participate in some manner before the sub takes over.

The replacement of FLEX by DP is proper, can be done immediately after lineup is accepted or any other time. Per the rule cites by Tom & Mike, the DP player can not be replaced on defense until facing a batter.

Of course, that rule is meant to apply to the listed pitcher when she bats in the top of first (not subs after that), and if I were rules maker, maybe only if a CR is used.

I have a tangent, semi-hijack about this for later.

[Dakota]

For those who have said there is no rule requiring the pitcher to face one batter, there IS a rule that requires the pitcher or catcher to face the first batter in the bottom of the 1st inning (by context, since this is in the Courtesy Runner rule, I assume this rule applies only if either player used a courtesy runner in the top of the first inning... otherwise, lineup card maneuver described in the OP is illegal. But, strictly speaking, the rule does not say that.)

Rule 8-9

ART. 2 . . . In the top of the first inning only, the pitcher and catcher are identified as those players listed on the lineup as the pitcher and catcher; both must face at least the first batter on defense. Thereafter, the pitcher and catcher are identified as the last players who physically played that position on defense. The pitcher or catcher must bat and reach base legally (or earn their way on base) in order to be eligible for a courtesy runner.

[clev1967]

I read the rule regarding facing one batter differently. 3-6-d (2009 book) states a player may be substituted for at any time. My interp is that only when a player is courtesy ran for in the top of the first must they face one batter in the bottom of the inning- this is why the catcher is included in that rule and why it is listed in the courtesy runner section.

Think about the reasoning. Two really good teams with stud pitchers going at it.(a game in which one run would be huge) Visiting team has a big hitter who cannot run listed as catcher she gets on in the top of first and is run for with a courtesy runner who is fast. Then after top of 1 regular catcher is substituted in for the original catcher.

The Starting pitcher being listed as DP and the flex listed as the P (who does not throw a P) has been a long used strategic move (Candrea has used it often) and is legal and the player listed as P does not have to throw a pitch I say.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by clev1967

(Candrea has used it often)

This discussion is not about NCAA.

[clev1967]

Yes I know, did not figure if I threw out a local High School Coach's name anyone would know who I was referring to.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

there IS a rule that requires the pitcher or catcher to face the first batter in the bottom of the 1st inning (by context, since this is in the Courtesy Runner rule, I assume this rule applies only if either player used a courtesy runner in the top of the first inning... otherwise, lineup card maneuver described in the OP is illegal. But, strictly speaking, the rule does not say that.)

Rule 8-9

Why is the "lineup card maneuver described in the OP is illegal", when DP for FLEX is a legal replacement and the DP player is the listed pitcher before she or anyone bats?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Why is the "lineup card maneuver described in the OP is illegal", when DP for FLEX is a legal replacement and the DP player is the listed pitcher before she or anyone bats?

If the rule regarding the battery facing the first batter in the bottom of the inning was a general rule (i.e. whether or not a CR is used), then DP cannot replace FLEX until FLEX faces one batter. I was just making an editorial comment (i.e. a comment on an editorial issue with the book). The rule (8-9-2) merely has the statement "In the top of the first inning only, the pitcher and catcher are identified as those players listed on the lineup as the pitcher and catcher; both must face at least the first batter on defense." I would modify the statement as: "In the top of the first inning only, the pitcher and catcher are identified as those players listed on the lineup as the pitcher and catcher; if either uses a CR in the top of the inning, that player must face at least the first batter on defense." However, as I said, the context of the rule (being in the CR rule) implies that.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

If the rule regarding the battery facing the first batter in the bottom of the inning was a general rule (i.e. whether or not a CR is used), then DP cannot replace FLEX until FLEX faces one batter. I was just making an editorial comment (i.e. a comment on an editorial issue with the book). The rule (8-9-2) merely has the statement "In the top of the first inning only, the pitcher and catcher are identified as those players listed on the lineup as the pitcher and catcher; both must face at least the first batter on defense." I would modify the statement as: "In the top of the first inning only, the pitcher and catcher are identified as those players listed on the lineup as the pitcher and catcher; if either uses a CR in the top of the inning, that player must face at least the first batter on defense." However, as I said, the context of the rule (being in the CR rule) implies that.

Agree, and you and I would certainly re-word the rule, but what are you saying would be illegal?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

...what are you saying would be illegal?

If the FLEX (the pitcher on the submitted lineup) must face the first batter in the bottom of the inning, then she cannot be replaced before she does that, so the maneuver where the DP/FLEX is submitted on the lineup (with FLEX as F1) and then immediately the coach drops down to 9 players would be illegal. He could not drop down to 9 players until FLEX has faced the first batter. I don't agree that this is the proper reading of the rule, but literally it could be read that way.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

If the FLEX (the pitcher on the submitted lineup) must face the first batter in the bottom of the inning, then she cannot be replaced before she does that, so the maneuver where the DP/FLEX is submitted on the lineup (with FLEX as F1) and then immediately the coach drops down to 9 players would be illegal. He could not drop down to 9 players until FLEX has faced the first batter. I don't agree that this is the proper reading of the rule, but literally it could be read that way.

The rule just says listed pitcher, not original listed pitcher, so that change before the player bats, would be legal. IMO
One of those "if it doesn't say so" rules.