Award after obstruction on another runner

[blueit]

I check this forum occasionally to stay up to date on rules issues, but haven't posted. I'm a 5th year ump, doing mostly high school & some ASA. I have a question about what to do at the end of a play on which obstruction occurs & is called.

R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B, 1 out. Fly ball to LF. R1 tags & tries to score, F2 sets up directly in basepath without the ball, runner veers toward foul territory & attempts headfirst slide, ball arrives just as R1 bounces off F2's legs & misses plate due to the contact. F2 hits the dirt, too, but scrambles to tag runner behind the plate & does so before runner can touch the plate. Plate umpire has signaled obstruction & calls "Obstruction -- safe!" as F2 attempts the play on the runner.

Meanwhile, R2 has tagged, reached 2B & rounded it. Seeing the contact at the plate & F2 going after R1 behind the plate, R2 heads for third & is most of the way there at the time F2 tags R1. No play is made on her at 3B.

Here's the question: does R2 stay at 3B or must she be returned to 2B?

I'm handicapped in not having my rule book with me at the moment, but I believe the rulebook reads that at the end of the play on which obs occurs,
the delayed dead ball becomes a dead ball & runners are awarded the bases they would have reached, in the umpire's judgment, without the obs.

Here's the problem: without obs (i.e., if F2 makes a clean tag on R1 in front of the plate, or even if she misses the tag), R2 would never have tried to advance to 3B. But due to the action & delay in between the time of the obs & the time "dead ball" occurs, R2 is able to advance most of the way to the next base.

Should the base award be made (a) as of the time of the obs, in which case
R2 is put back on 2B, or (b) as of the time the ball becomes dead, in which case R2 is put on 3B. Seems to me that (a) penalizes the offense for an infraction by the defense. But I supposed looked at the other way, it's a question of whether the offense can gain an extra base as a result of an obs infraction by the defense.

I hope I've explained that clearly

[CecilOne]

Seems clear to me, VG first post.

Other runners' positions are not determined by the timing of the OBS.

If the ball becomes dead because of an apparent putout of an obstructed, then check the others. There is a rule of thumb that progress 1/2 way is awarded forwarded, but in your case, the runner is "most of the way there at the time F2 tags R1"; so 3rd base.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Seems clear to me, VG first post.

Other runners' positions are not determined by the timing of the OBS.

If the ball becomes dead because of an apparent putout of an obstructed, then check the others. There is a rule of thumb that progress 1/2 way is awarded forwarded, but in your case, the runner is "most of the way there at the time F2 tags R1"; so 3rd base.

Agree.
And to echo Cecil's comment....nice job on your first post.

[greymule]

Yes. Well-organized and lucid writing, superior to what I normally edit for physicians and Ivy League professors. You can't fake it. blueit is an educated man.

Stick around, blueit! Just don't ask about rising fastballs.

(Yes, I know there's a missing period at the end.)

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by greymule

Stick around, blueit! Just don't ask about rising fastballs.

Go ahead and ask on the baseball forum. That thread has yet to come up this year.

[blueit]

Thanks for the replies.

I looked further last night & found this comment on "delayed dead ball" in the NFHS case book: "... the umpire, at the end of playing action, declares the ball dead, for the purpose of making an award or imposing a penalty." It doesn't say "at the end of the play on the obstructed runner," but "at the end of playing action," so if a runner is going from 2B to 3B as the obstruction occurs, I'd say the "playing action" ends when she reaches 3B (or is tagged out -- she shouldn't be protected because there's obs. on another runner).

[Dakota]

When an obstructed runner is put out while she is still protected, the ball is dead immediately, hence there is no further playing action.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by blueit

I check this forum occasionally to stay up to date on rules issues, but haven't posted. I'm a 5th year ump, doing mostly high school & some ASA. I have a question about what to do at the end of a play on which obstruction occurs & is called.

R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B, 1 out. Fly ball to LF. R1 tags & tries to score, F2 sets up directly in basepath without the ball, runner veers toward foul territory & attempts headfirst slide, ball arrives just as R1 bounces off F2's legs & misses plate due to the contact. F2 hits the dirt, too, but scrambles to tag runner behind the plate & does so before runner can touch the plate. Plate umpire has signaled obstruction & calls "Obstruction -- safe!" as F2 attempts the play on the runner.

Meanwhile, R2 has tagged, reached 2B & rounded it. Seeing the contact at the plate & F2 going after R1 behind the plate, R2 heads for third & is most of the way there at the time F2 tags R1. No play is made on her at 3B.

Here's the question: does R2 stay at 3B or must she be returned to 2B?

I'm handicapped in not having my rule book with me at the moment, but I believe the rulebook reads that at the end of the play on which obs occurs,
the delayed dead ball becomes a dead ball & runners are awarded the bases they would have reached, in the umpire's judgment, without the obs.

Here's the problem: without obs (i.e., if F2 makes a clean tag on R1 in front of the plate, or even if she misses the tag), R2 would never have tried to advance to 3B. But due to the action & delay in between the time of the obs & the time "dead ball" occurs, R2 is able to advance most of the way to the next base.

Should the base award be made (a) as of the time of the obs, in which case
R2 is put back on 2B, or (b) as of the time the ball becomes dead, in which case R2 is put on 3B. Seems to me that (a) penalizes the offense for an infraction by the defense. But I supposed looked at the other way, it's a question of whether the offense can gain an extra base as a result of an obs infraction by the defense.

I hope I've explained that clearly

As the others have noted, very good description of the play! I want to comment on the part of your post that I have emphasized above:

Since the obstructed runner was tagged out prior to reaching the base she was protected to (home), the PU's call should have been

DEAD BALL!..Obstruction on the catcher, award of home, R2, award of third base!

Tom (Dakota) alluded to this in his post. Remember that with OBS, you may have to place not only the obstructed runner, but any other runner affected by the obstruction.

When debating whether or not to advance a runner due to obstruction, it is generally a good practice to award the forward base. After all, the defense violated a rule, why should they benefit by keeping a runner(s) from advancing?

[blueit]

I appreciate the advice from the experienced pros, but what you're saying to do doesn't square with the NFHS casebook. Maybe ASA or NCAA is different, but I'm reading the Fed books. There could be something else in the rulebook or casebook I missed that contradicts what I'm reading, but the case book (2009 version) says twice -- under "Delayed Dead Ball" comment 5.1.2 and again under 8.4.3 Situation C that the umpire declares the ball dead "at the end of playing action."

If a runner is going from 2B to 3B as an obstructred runner is being tagged "out" (she's not out, she's safe due to the obs., so the tag means nothing & is just wasted effort by the defense) at the plate, I've got to say "'playing action" has not ended. F2 could still throw to 3B & try to get an out there on an advancing runner.

And the reality is that the runner at 2B is not affected at all by the obstruction at the plate, other than in a positive way (gaining some time while F2 obstructs & then tries to tag the obstructed runner). I really don't think that's what the rule means by "affected." Again, NFHS casebook comment 8.4.3, Sit C (2009 ed.) says very specifially that an award would be made to "all runners effected by the obstruction ..." (It means "affected".) I don't think that means a runner at 2B when the obs. play is at home, 84 feet away.

So, begging to differ (and with some trepidation), I don't think there should be an award to the runner between 2B & 3B at all, so long as "playing action" continues.

If I'm wrong, I'd sure like a rulebook or casebook reference that I could use to back me up if I kill a play after a non-out tag is made on an obstructed runner & other action continues on the play.

The real interesting question: if F2 comes up from the non-out tag & throws the runner out at 3B, is it an out? The way the NFHS casebook reads, I think it is. The unaffected runner should get no protection.

I think Rule 8-4, Art. 3c leads to the same result. 8-4-3c uses the same wording "each other runner affected by the obstruction" will be awarded bases. I don't think a runner at 2B is affected by obs. at the plate, at least not in the way the rule means.

Rule 8-4, Art. 3a could be read differently, but I think something has to be implied that's not specifically stated there. Art. 3a does say that if "the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base that would have been reached had there not been obstruction, a dead ball is called and the obstructed runner and each other runner affected by the obstruction" are awarded basis.

I've got 2 problems with the wording of Art. 3a, though. One, using the term "put out" doesn't make much sense, because the runner isn't out at all. She's safe. If the intent is to say "tagged," then the Rule should say tagged.
Two, although Art. 3a says "a dead ball is called," it does not say WHEN the dead ball is called -- whether immediately or after other playing action ends. The casebook comments DO say when, twice: "at the end of playing action."

I can't see killing the play, with "playing action" continuing, immediately when a useless tag is made on a safe, obstructed runner. Doing that gives the defense (which has just committed an infraction) an advantage: they can possibly "freeze" runners by making a pointless tag.

And what happens if F2, hearing an "Obstruction ... Safe!" call, realizes that a tag on the safe runner is a waste of time & effort, so she makes a throw
to try to get a runner heading to another base? If "dead ball" isn't called without a tag & play continues, why should it be called with a tag? The F2 who's just obstructed a runner should have the ability to stop further play by making a meaningless tag on the obstructed runner? That doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe 8-4 Art. 3a has been applied as you say and that's just "how it's done." But if so, it's not done the way the comments to the casebook say it should be done.

I'm getting conflicting advise from experienced umpires and the casebook comments. Oh boy.

[blueit]

Make that "advice" in the last sentence of my prior comment. If I correct casebook spelling, I need to correct my own.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by blueit

Rule 8-4, Art. 3a could be read differently, but I think something has to be implied that's not specifically stated there. Art. 3a does say that if "the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base that would have been reached had there not been obstruction, a dead ball is called and the obstructed runner and each other runner affected by the obstruction" are awarded basis.

I've got 2 problems with the wording of Art. 3a, though. One, using the term "put out" doesn't make much sense, because the runner isn't out at all. She's safe. If the intent is to say "tagged," then the Rule should say tagged.
Two, although Art. 3a says "a dead ball is called," it does not say WHEN the dead ball is called -- whether immediately or after other playing action ends. The casebook comments DO say when, twice: "at the end of playing action."

Just read that for what it says; it's the right reference and people are telling you how to call it.
Your approach would get messy as she could be put out in other ways. She could avoid a tag or be forced out.
Most delayed dead balls (all?) have you rule what happens without a penalty and then call a dead ball and enforce the penalty. CO but the ball is hit and the runner is out at first. BU calls out. PU calls dead ball and makes an award. IP same thing.
________
Tastylikepeachs live

[Dakota]

Just take the rule at its word. When the protected runner is put out, the ball is dead. Right then. You then have to deal with placing the other runners, if any.

Case plays deal only with the situation presented, and are usually structured to illustrate a particular clarifying point they are trying to make. Case plays are not rules.

[Andy]

An obstructed runner is not "safe", until she is....safe. In your scenario, by touching home plate. From your description, that didn't happen. Obstruction is a delayed dead ball...a DDB is saying, when this is all over, there may be some additional stuff to do.

Read NFHS case book play 8.4.3 sit A - In the Ruling it says that the umpire will signal obstruction when it occurs and then call time at the end of playing action or when the obstructed runner is put out before reaching the base she would have reached ... had there been no obstruction (emphasis mine)

In your play, TIME should have been called as soon as the runner was tagged prior to reaching the plate. Once time is called, nothing else can happen. you now have to place runners at the base(s) you think they would have obtained without the obstruction. The easy one is the obstructed runner...she gets home. You still have one other runner to deal with, however, and it is strictly your judgement that determines where she is placed. From your description, I would lean toward putting her at third.

[blueit]

I don't think 8.4.3 Sit A and Sit. C are consistent.

But in Sit A (F6 grabs runner headed toward 3B), consider 2 scenarios:

A - F5 receives throw w/ a foot on 3B (force play), or

B - F5 receives throw off the base & doesn't try to tag R1, who's being held by the SS, according to the Sit.

R2 has hesitated or fallen & isn't quite to 2B yet. F5 throws to 2B & the throw barely beats F2.

In A, if handled as in other comments, the play is killed (immediate dead ball) as soon as F5 receives the throw & R1 is "put out". It's umpire's judgment
where to put R2, though R2 wasn't really affected by the obs. [Which seems a problem to me -- awarding bases to a runner not affected by the obstruction.] She can't be put on 1B -- the batter-runner is there. If R2 was more than halfway to 2B, she probably is awarded 2B, though she was not affected by the obstruction at all.

In B, R2 is out & play continues if batter-runner does anything -- even though R2 was no more affected by the obstruction than in A.

In A, that's certainly not declaring a dead ball "at the end of playing action."
And the defense gets an out merely because F5's foot was off the base when she got the throw. What a strange way for the defense to get a break.

What I'm being advised is to ignore the comments in the casebook & apply a rule that doesn't say when to declare dead ball, but is generally considered to imply that dead ball should be declared when the "out" happens.
That rule & the casebook comments need some work. The rule itself is not clear as to the timing of the dead ball call and the explanatory casebook comments are, evidently, wrong.

Somehow, if I'm a coach who's affected by this application of the rule & I read those comments, I'm not going to be satisfied with the explanation of "But that's how it's supposed to be called, despite those comments, which are wrong."

NFHS needs to amend the rule or delete those comments from the casebook.

[Dakota]

One concept you need to grasp is the obstruction rule is not intended to be punative, but rather restorative.