Award after obstruction on another runner

[blueit]

Originally Posted by Dakota

One concept you need to grasp is the obstruction rule is not intended to be punative, but rather restorative.

I understand, but if the situation is to be restored to what would've happened without the obstruction, why do runners unaffected by the obstruction get awarded bases? That doesn't fit the concept.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by blueit

I understand, but if the situation is to be restored to what would've happened without the obstruction, why do runners unaffected by the obstruction get awarded bases? That doesn't fit the concept.

They don't.

[blueit]

But that's what's been suggested above. Umpire should award a base (a "more than halfway" rule of thumb was suggested) to a runner who hasn't been affected by the obstruction. The runner was rounding 2B when the obs. occurred at home plate.

Or in the 8.4.3 Sit A example, the runner between 1B & 2B wasn't affected by the obstruction occurring at SS. Yet is she awarded 2B? (She can't be put on 1B, where the batter is.)

[youngump]

Originally Posted by blueit

But that's what's been suggested above. Umpire should award a base (a "more than halfway" rule of thumb was suggested) to a runner who hasn't been affected by the obstruction. The runner was rounding 2B when the obs. occurred at home plate.

Or in the 8.4.3 Sit A example, the runner between 1B & 2B wasn't affected by the obstruction occurring at SS. Yet is she awarded 2B? (She can't be put on 1B, where the batter is.)

When an obstructed runner is put out, the ball is dead and this makes more sense then you're giving credit for.
Sitch: R1 on 2nd, B2 hits a short single to left and R1 is obstructed going to third (protected to third). The throw is made to SS where the runner is tagged out just before B2 gets to first.

In the rules this is a dead ball and we award the base we believe the runner would have been safe at had the play continued. (Nothing to do with the result of the obstruction).

In your mind, we should let that play continue. But what do you do with R1. Suppose she is tagged, gets up and runs to 3rd. B2 has rounded the bag and the throw to pick her off goes into shallow right field. R1 decides to go home on this action in a) the fielder having seen her tagged out throws to 1st. in b) the fielder decides to throw home and as a result B2 gets 2nd.
What are you going to do?

Just call it the way the rules read, when an obstructed runner is put out it is an immediate dead ball; the obstructed runner is awarded the protected base and all other runners are awarded the base they would have achieved if the ball had not been called dead. If the obstructed runner is not put out, the ball remains live.

Yes, the defense is more likely to get an out while the ball is live so it is to their advantage in most cases not to retire an obstructed runner, but that's way past most softball players.
________
Ocean View Condominiums Pattaya

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by blueit

But that's what's been suggested above. Umpire should award a base (a "more than halfway" rule of thumb was suggested) to a runner who hasn't been affected by the obstruction. The runner was rounding 2B when the obs. occurred at home plate.

Or in the 8.4.3 Sit A example, the runner between 1B & 2B wasn't affected by the obstruction occurring at SS. Yet is she awarded 2B? (She can't be put on 1B, where the batter is.)

As above, the timing of the OBS has nothing to do with the placement of other runners. Because time out is required on an apparent putout (the non-out above) of an obstructed runner, we must do something with the other runners. In the OP, the runner can't be left standing between 2nd and 3rd, or in the case, left standing between 1st and 2nd.

Rule 8.4.3,b penalty A defines when the dead ball / time out is called. Besides any other runners affected by the OBS, placement of additional runners is a judgement. No advancement on their own can occur with time out or a dead ball. The other runner(s) are not "awarded" bases, they are placed on a base because they have to be on one or the other.

Whether the time out makes sense to you is not the point, it is the prescribed procedure; so we are stuck with the result.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by blueit

But that's what's been suggested above. Umpire should award a base (a "more than halfway" rule of thumb was suggested) to a runner who hasn't been affected by the obstruction. The runner was rounding 2B when the obs. occurred at home plate.

Or in the 8.4.3 Sit A example, the runner between 1B & 2B wasn't affected by the obstruction occurring at SS. Yet is she awarded 2B? (She can't be put on 1B, where the batter is.)

No, the umpire is actually allowing the runner to complete the runner task, but if you want to call it an award, that's fine.

Now, if you need justification, you can "award" that runner 3B because s/he was indeed affected by the OBS. How, you ask? Simple since the dead ball ruling is dictated by the rule, the OBS call kept that runner from reaching the base s/he would have reached had the OBS not occurred. Of course, you could "judge" that the runner would not have reasonably reached 3B safely and leave him/her at 2B.

Cannot do anything more for you. It IS the way it is in all games of which I am aware.

[WestMichiganBlue]

Originally Posted by blueit

What I'm being advised is to ignore the comments in the casebook & apply a rule that doesn't say when to declare dead ball, but is generally considered to imply that dead ball should be declared when the "out" happens.

WRT timing, the rule book is very clear.

1. DDB is signalled at the time of obstruction. 8.4.3b Penalty. Means that you will call DB sometime in the future.


2. DB immediately when the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base she would be awarded had obstruction not occured. 8.4.3b Penalty (a). This would also include between the two bases she was obstructed.

Understand that the runner cannot be called out by rule. If you say nothing, the offense or defense may become confused due your no-call. So you kill the play right then and there.


3. Call runner out if she is past the protected base, keep the ball live, and call dead ball at the end of playing action. 8.4.3b Penalty (b)


4. If the obstructed runner is never put out, call DB at the end of playing action. (Assumed).


What to do with other runners is not clear from the text. So allow me to enter my two cents worth.

A - IF you call DB when the obstructed runner is put out, you have suspended other runners at that instant. You, and your partner are required to quickly find other runners and to place them where you think they would have ended had you not killed the play. General rule-of-thumb is 50/50; if they are more than halfway, send them to next base. Otherwise return them to prior base.

B - if play ends normally and then you call DB to make awards, the only time you have to be concerned about other runners is when you put the obstructed runner on a base occupied by another runner. If that happens, the obstructed runner gets that base, and the other runner must vacate and go forward or back.

Assume you award the obstructed runner to 3B, but during the play the lead runner decided not to go home and is now back on 3B. Send her home.

Assume you award the obstructed runner back to 2B, but the batter-runner went all the way to 2B. Send her back to 1B.

Hope that helps.

WMB

[CecilOne]

I think you both (IM & WMB) agree with what I said, no disagreement I can find, but let me know if you disagree.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by WestMichiganBlue

(snip)
Assume you award the obstructed runner to 3B, but during the play the lead runner decided not to go home and is now back on 3B. Send her home.

Assume you award the obstructed runner back to 2B, but the batter-runner went all the way to 2B. Send her back to 1B.

Hope that helps.

WMB

Which brings up something I hadn't had to think about until last Sunday.
That is how the award affects the preceeding or following runners.
Basically, an obstruction award can "push" a preceeding runner forward or a following runner back.

So R1 on 1st.
B2 hits to outfield.
R1 obstructed between 2nd and 3rd, subsequently thrown out at 3rd as BR comes into 2nd.
Judgement was that R1 would NOT have attained 3rd absent the obstruction.
R1 placed on 2nd, BR returns to 1st.

Correct placement?

[blueit]

I understand what you're all saying & I really don't want to argue with multiple umpires with your level of experience. I'll try to call things in the future as you suggest. There remain some troubling parts of the printed NFHS rules & casebook comments -- how they're worded, inconsistency between rulebook & casebook, and a concept (play continues if no tag, play stops if there's a tag ... though the tag has no effect on safe/out).

1. Wording -- every mention in the rules and comments of awarding bases to other runners refers to "runners affected by the obstruction", not just runners. I don't buy the notion that "affected by the obstruction" means affected by a dead ball call that results not from the obstruction itself (which is only a delayed dead ball, and "the ball will remain live" as it says in the penalty part of 8-4.3.b), but from subsequent events -- whether a tag is attempted & made & whether the umpire 84 feet away calls "dead ball."

Another problem with the wording is that, contrary to a couple of posts above, no rule specifies WHEN the "dead ball" call is to be made. 8-4-3b
says "a dead ball is called". It does not say "... when the put out occurs." Nor does it say "immediate".
That is a implication which everyone apparently agrees should be made.
But that's inconsistent with the casebook comments.

A third problem is the use of the term "put out" to refer to an obstructed runner who's tagged without reaching the base. She's not really out, because
to quote the 8-4-3B Penalty: "An obstructed runner may not be called out between the two bases where she was obstructed." So she can't be "called out", but she can be "put out"? Wow. Explain that to a coach. If the rule means "tagged" (I can't think of another way an obstructed runner could be "put out"), that's what it should say.

2 Inconsistency -- The casebook comments, in 2 different places as detailed above, do specifically state when the "dead ball" call is to be made: "at the end of playing action," which is not the same thing as "when the obstructed runner is put out." If other runners are still moving on the bases, "playing action" has not ended. Either (a) the "playing action" specified in the comments is implied to be the "playing action" on the obstructed runner only, not other runners), or (b) the comment is just wrong, as being in conflict with the IMPLICATION of the rule that "dead ball" should be called when the obstructed runner is tagged. And (a) can't be correct -- because playing action does continue, everyone agrees, if there's no tag.

3. Concept -- The result indicated in the above comments is that play continues if a fielder does not tag an obstructed runner, but is stopped
if there is a tag. Just from a philosophical, "what should the rule be?" standpoint, why should a tag that has no bearing at all on safe/out status
(because the obstructed runner can't be called out between those bases)
determine whether play continues or not? If I were drafting the rule from scratch, I wouldn't want a meaningless play by a fielder on a runner she's just obstructed to affect other runners. For 2 reasons -- (1) If there's been a collision due to obs., it's not unusual that tempers flare, and a rule that
encourages the obstructing player to continue to try to tag the runner
(despite having presumably heard an "obstruction!" call, which means the runner is safe) is probably not wise. (2) That the obstructing fielder can suspend or freeze the progress of other runners (by getting an immediate "dead ball" call) bothers me. To me, that's punishing the offense for a rule infraction by the defense. If the concept underlying obs./DDB is to restore players to what they would have done without the obs. (as Tom stated above), then other runners should be allowed to do what they would've done without the obs.: either stop or try for the next base. Instead, their position is now determined by umpire judgment, because the obstructing fielder made a meaningless tag, even though they weren't "affected" in the normal sense by the obstruction.

And one more thing, then I'll shut up. What if, in the OP, instead of missing the tag at the plate on the first pass so that there's a delay of several seconds between the obstruction & the tag, F2 does touch the obstructed runner just after receiving the ball. The tag converts a DDB into a "dead ball" almost immediately. There's essentially no "delay" to a DDB, and the statement in 8-4-3b (Penalty) that "The ball will remain live" doesn't mean much. Not to mention the "end of playing action" comments.

Bottom line for me: the rulebook & casebook are a mess in this area. The rulebook never specifies exactly when "dead ball" is to be called. The casebook comments do, but they're wrong. Runners unaffected by the obstruction itself are placed on bases according to umpire judgment, despite the rule language only applying to "affected" runners. An obstructed runner can be "put out" but not "called out." Imagine explaining all that to a coach who carefully reads, after a "continuing action" play following obstruction, the casebook and inquires (post-game,one would hope), "Why do these comments not apply?" That's a tough one. What would fix this would be the following:

1. In rule 8-4-3b, PENALTY add after "a dead ball is called": "when the obstructed runner is tagged." (Again, I can't think of a way a runner not reaching the base would be "put out" without being tagged.)

2. In the same sentence, add after "runner affected by the obstruction", add "or the 'dead ball' call".

3. In the comments, clarify that dead ball is to be called "(i) at the end of playing action if no tag is made on the obstructed runner, or (ii) when the obstructed runner is tagged."

None of those things is clear from the present rules or comments. This all may seem clear to those of you who have been calling it this way for many years, but it isn't clear to others who carefully read the rules & comments.

[youngump]

With no ill intent, your rulebook lawyering just isn't quite getting you where you're trying to get. A couple of thoughts, first:

If the rule means "tagged" (I can't think of another way an obstructed runner could be "put out"), that's what it should say.

You didn't read my first response to you very carefully then. There are other ways. But suppose your interpretation was right. When would an immediate dead ball result? The rule probably could be less easily misread if it read when a runner would be out if not for the result of the penalty of the obstruction; but it's not exactly easy to get to your result anyway and it would make it harder for people to refresh themselves on the rule.

The casebook comments, in 2 different places as detailed above, do specifically state when the "dead ball" call is to be made: "at the end of playing action,"

I'm not sure which case plays you mean and if you'll cite them we can discuss in more detail, but generally I think your confusion is this. A delayed dead ball is a situation where the ball will be dead at the end of playing action. That is the result of obstruction. The result of putting out a runner who is protected because of obstruction is a dead ball. A dead ball is not a delayed dead ball. If there is a case where they confuse them can you post it?

You may not like the rule but I assure you, your alternative would result in players confused as could be.
________
How To Roll A Joint

[blueit]

I cited the case book plays above: 8.4.3, Sit C ... no mention of immediate dead ball, and base award is "at the end of playing action." Not "end of playing action on the obstructed runner", as you would have it, but the end of playing action period. If runners are still moving on the bases, playing action is continuing.

More specifically, the comment to 5.1.2 reads:
"What is meant by 'delayed dead ball'? The term applies to situations in which an infraction is not to be ignored and, therefore, the umpire, at the end of playing action, declares the ball dead for the purpose of making an award or imposing a penalty. These sisutations include ... runner being obstructed."

Someone else mentioned 8.4.3, Sit A, which mentions calling time "at the end of playing action or when the obstructed runner is put out." [Note, if "whichever comes first" is implied, it's not stated.] But that Sit involves something different than the original post & relates to a different subsection of the rule involving a runner being obstructed by another fielder other than the one in possession of the ball.

And with all due respect, you keep trying to add "immediate" to the dead ball call in the rule. It's not in the rule. Following the timiing specified in comments, there would be no immediate dead ball on obstruction. It would be a delayed dead ball, at the end of playing action. That way, the dead ball timing would be the same, whether or not the obstructed runner was tagged. That would lessen confusion, not increase it. (And for what it's worth, it would make umpires' jobs easier: no
need to look for a meaningless tag after obstruction. Instead, they could focus on the continuing action on the basepaths.)

Call it lawyering if you want. I call it reading the casebook as we're repeatedly told to do & trying to do what it says in the absence of any specificity in the rule about when to call dead ball.

And, by the way, your prior post does not given an ex. of how an obstructed runner can be "put out" other than being tagged.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by blueit

Call it lawyering if you want. I call it reading the casebook as we're repeatedly told to do & trying to do what it says in the absence of any specificity in the rule about when to call dead ball.

I mean the whole case play so we can see what it's talking about. I'm not adding anything to the deadball. When a batter is hit with a pitch it's a dead ball. That's not the same thing as a delayed dead ball because it is immediately dead.

But that Sit involves something different than the original post & relates to a different subsection of the rule involving a runner being obstructed by another fielder other than the one in possession of the ball.

How could she be obstructed by anyone but a fielder other than the one in posession of the ball?
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Sick From Prilosec

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by blueit

...And with all due respect, you keep trying to add "immediate" to the dead ball call in the rule. It's not in the rule....

Actually, the onus is on you here. There is a difference between a delayed dead ball and a dead ball. One is delayed and the other isn't. They have different definitions and different applications.

Rule 8-4-3b PENALTY-a states conditions when the ball is dead. The rule states, "If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base that would have been reached had there not been obstruction, a dead ball is called..." How do you call a dead ball? How do you do that while keeping the ball live? How is it reasonable to interpret this sentence to mean "when you get around to it, call a dead ball"?

Since you want to interpret that as a delayed dead ball merely because they do not state (redundantly) "immediately", show another example of the rule book using the term "dead ball" when it is interpreted as "delayed dead ball."

[blueit]

Not "when you get around to it", but when playing action ends, as the Comment to Sit 5.1.2 instructs.

I certainly agree that dead ball & delayed dead ball are different. A dead ball is immediate, a ddb isn't. Obstruction is a delayed dead ball. Indeed, Rule 5, Art. 1 does use the term "immediately" to describe certain dead ball situations.
A "put out" on an obstructed runner isn't one of the listed situations and Rule 8-4-3b doesn't use the term "immediately", which has been used with other dead ball situations in 5-1. Everyone wants to read "immediately" into 8-4-3b just as it appears in 5-1. But it ain't there.

Consider this: In the play desribed in the OP, F2 upon receiving the ball tries a swipe tag on the runner she's obstructed & then quickly fires a throw to 3B to try to nail an advancing runner. If she brushes the obstructed runner with a tag, it's an "immediate" dead ball, I've been told in these posts. If she misses by an inch, playing action continues. [Editorial aside: does that really make sense? Why kill that play on a delayed dead ball?]

Continuing that thought further, if in the tag situation the throw beats the
runner at 3B & F5 tags her out, the play at 3B doesn't count, because the ball was immediately dead upon the tag. The umpire has to place the runner somewhere. Do you give her 3B? She was more than halfway to 3B when the ball became dead. But, not being affected in the normal sense by the obs., what base would she have reached without the obstruction? She'd have been out at 3B. Do you give it to her anyway, even as an unaffected runner? Or do you put her back on 2B because she was between bases when the ball was declared dead? If you put her on either base, you're protecting (or awarding a base to) an unobstructed, unaffected runner even though rule says only "each other runner affected by the obstruction will be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached..."

If F2's sweep tag just misses the runner, no immediate dead ball, playing action continues & runner heading to 3B is out.

So a touched or missed sweep tag that makes no difference as far as safe/out on the obstructed runner is concerned has a huge effect on the
subsequent play. That may be "just the way it is," but that doesn't seem right to me. And it makes it very important for the plate umpire to determine whether there is or isn't a tag, even though the tag has no effect on the play at home.