Award after obstruction on another runner

[blueit]

I understand what you're all saying & I really don't want to argue with multiple umpires with your level of experience. I'll try to call things in the future as you suggest. There remain some troubling parts of the printed NFHS rules & casebook comments -- how they're worded, inconsistency between rulebook & casebook, and a concept (play continues if no tag, play stops if there's a tag ... though the tag has no effect on safe/out).

1. Wording -- every mention in the rules and comments of awarding bases to other runners refers to "runners affected by the obstruction", not just runners. I don't buy the notion that "affected by the obstruction" means affected by a dead ball call that results not from the obstruction itself (which is only a delayed dead ball, and "the ball will remain live" as it says in the penalty part of 8-4.3.b), but from subsequent events -- whether a tag is attempted & made & whether the umpire 84 feet away calls "dead ball."

Another problem with the wording is that, contrary to a couple of posts above, no rule specifies WHEN the "dead ball" call is to be made. 8-4-3b
says "a dead ball is called". It does not say "... when the put out occurs." Nor does it say "immediate".
That is a implication which everyone apparently agrees should be made.
But that's inconsistent with the casebook comments.

A third problem is the use of the term "put out" to refer to an obstructed runner who's tagged without reaching the base. She's not really out, because
to quote the 8-4-3B Penalty: "An obstructed runner may not be called out between the two bases where she was obstructed." So she can't be "called out", but she can be "put out"? Wow. Explain that to a coach. If the rule means "tagged" (I can't think of another way an obstructed runner could be "put out"), that's what it should say.

2 Inconsistency -- The casebook comments, in 2 different places as detailed above, do specifically state when the "dead ball" call is to be made: "at the end of playing action," which is not the same thing as "when the obstructed runner is put out." If other runners are still moving on the bases, "playing action" has not ended. Either (a) the "playing action" specified in the comments is implied to be the "playing action" on the obstructed runner only, not other runners), or (b) the comment is just wrong, as being in conflict with the IMPLICATION of the rule that "dead ball" should be called when the obstructed runner is tagged. And (a) can't be correct -- because playing action does continue, everyone agrees, if there's no tag.

3. Concept -- The result indicated in the above comments is that play continues if a fielder does not tag an obstructed runner, but is stopped
if there is a tag. Just from a philosophical, "what should the rule be?" standpoint, why should a tag that has no bearing at all on safe/out status
(because the obstructed runner can't be called out between those bases)
determine whether play continues or not? If I were drafting the rule from scratch, I wouldn't want a meaningless play by a fielder on a runner she's just obstructed to affect other runners. For 2 reasons -- (1) If there's been a collision due to obs., it's not unusual that tempers flare, and a rule that
encourages the obstructing player to continue to try to tag the runner
(despite having presumably heard an "obstruction!" call, which means the runner is safe) is probably not wise. (2) That the obstructing fielder can suspend or freeze the progress of other runners (by getting an immediate "dead ball" call) bothers me. To me, that's punishing the offense for a rule infraction by the defense. If the concept underlying obs./DDB is to restore players to what they would have done without the obs. (as Tom stated above), then other runners should be allowed to do what they would've done without the obs.: either stop or try for the next base. Instead, their position is now determined by umpire judgment, because the obstructing fielder made a meaningless tag, even though they weren't "affected" in the normal sense by the obstruction.

And one more thing, then I'll shut up. What if, in the OP, instead of missing the tag at the plate on the first pass so that there's a delay of several seconds between the obstruction & the tag, F2 does touch the obstructed runner just after receiving the ball. The tag converts a DDB into a "dead ball" almost immediately. There's essentially no "delay" to a DDB, and the statement in 8-4-3b (Penalty) that "The ball will remain live" doesn't mean much. Not to mention the "end of playing action" comments.

Bottom line for me: the rulebook & casebook are a mess in this area. The rulebook never specifies exactly when "dead ball" is to be called. The casebook comments do, but they're wrong. Runners unaffected by the obstruction itself are placed on bases according to umpire judgment, despite the rule language only applying to "affected" runners. An obstructed runner can be "put out" but not "called out." Imagine explaining all that to a coach who carefully reads, after a "continuing action" play following obstruction, the casebook and inquires (post-game,one would hope), "Why do these comments not apply?" That's a tough one. What would fix this would be the following:

1. In rule 8-4-3b, PENALTY add after "a dead ball is called": "when the obstructed runner is tagged." (Again, I can't think of a way a runner not reaching the base would be "put out" without being tagged.)

2. In the same sentence, add after "runner affected by the obstruction", add "or the 'dead ball' call".

3. In the comments, clarify that dead ball is to be called "(i) at the end of playing action if no tag is made on the obstructed runner, or (ii) when the obstructed runner is tagged."

None of those things is clear from the present rules or comments. This all may seem clear to those of you who have been calling it this way for many years, but it isn't clear to others who carefully read the rules & comments.

[youngump]

With no ill intent, your rulebook lawyering just isn't quite getting you where you're trying to get. A couple of thoughts, first:

If the rule means "tagged" (I can't think of another way an obstructed runner could be "put out"), that's what it should say.

You didn't read my first response to you very carefully then. There are other ways. But suppose your interpretation was right. When would an immediate dead ball result? The rule probably could be less easily misread if it read when a runner would be out if not for the result of the penalty of the obstruction; but it's not exactly easy to get to your result anyway and it would make it harder for people to refresh themselves on the rule.

The casebook comments, in 2 different places as detailed above, do specifically state when the "dead ball" call is to be made: "at the end of playing action,"

I'm not sure which case plays you mean and if you'll cite them we can discuss in more detail, but generally I think your confusion is this. A delayed dead ball is a situation where the ball will be dead at the end of playing action. That is the result of obstruction. The result of putting out a runner who is protected because of obstruction is a dead ball. A dead ball is not a delayed dead ball. If there is a case where they confuse them can you post it?

You may not like the rule but I assure you, your alternative would result in players confused as could be.
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[blueit]

I cited the case book plays above: 8.4.3, Sit C ... no mention of immediate dead ball, and base award is "at the end of playing action." Not "end of playing action on the obstructed runner", as you would have it, but the end of playing action period. If runners are still moving on the bases, playing action is continuing.

More specifically, the comment to 5.1.2 reads:
"What is meant by 'delayed dead ball'? The term applies to situations in which an infraction is not to be ignored and, therefore, the umpire, at the end of playing action, declares the ball dead for the purpose of making an award or imposing a penalty. These sisutations include ... runner being obstructed."

Someone else mentioned 8.4.3, Sit A, which mentions calling time "at the end of playing action or when the obstructed runner is put out." [Note, if "whichever comes first" is implied, it's not stated.] But that Sit involves something different than the original post & relates to a different subsection of the rule involving a runner being obstructed by another fielder other than the one in possession of the ball.

And with all due respect, you keep trying to add "immediate" to the dead ball call in the rule. It's not in the rule. Following the timiing specified in comments, there would be no immediate dead ball on obstruction. It would be a delayed dead ball, at the end of playing action. That way, the dead ball timing would be the same, whether or not the obstructed runner was tagged. That would lessen confusion, not increase it. (And for what it's worth, it would make umpires' jobs easier: no
need to look for a meaningless tag after obstruction. Instead, they could focus on the continuing action on the basepaths.)

Call it lawyering if you want. I call it reading the casebook as we're repeatedly told to do & trying to do what it says in the absence of any specificity in the rule about when to call dead ball.

And, by the way, your prior post does not given an ex. of how an obstructed runner can be "put out" other than being tagged.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by blueit

Call it lawyering if you want. I call it reading the casebook as we're repeatedly told to do & trying to do what it says in the absence of any specificity in the rule about when to call dead ball.

I mean the whole case play so we can see what it's talking about. I'm not adding anything to the deadball. When a batter is hit with a pitch it's a dead ball. That's not the same thing as a delayed dead ball because it is immediately dead.

But that Sit involves something different than the original post & relates to a different subsection of the rule involving a runner being obstructed by another fielder other than the one in possession of the ball.

How could she be obstructed by anyone but a fielder other than the one in posession of the ball?
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[Dakota]

Originally Posted by blueit

...And with all due respect, you keep trying to add "immediate" to the dead ball call in the rule. It's not in the rule....

Actually, the onus is on you here. There is a difference between a delayed dead ball and a dead ball. One is delayed and the other isn't. They have different definitions and different applications.

Rule 8-4-3b PENALTY-a states conditions when the ball is dead. The rule states, "If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base that would have been reached had there not been obstruction, a dead ball is called..." How do you call a dead ball? How do you do that while keeping the ball live? How is it reasonable to interpret this sentence to mean "when you get around to it, call a dead ball"?

Since you want to interpret that as a delayed dead ball merely because they do not state (redundantly) "immediately", show another example of the rule book using the term "dead ball" when it is interpreted as "delayed dead ball."

[blueit]

Not "when you get around to it", but when playing action ends, as the Comment to Sit 5.1.2 instructs.

I certainly agree that dead ball & delayed dead ball are different. A dead ball is immediate, a ddb isn't. Obstruction is a delayed dead ball. Indeed, Rule 5, Art. 1 does use the term "immediately" to describe certain dead ball situations.
A "put out" on an obstructed runner isn't one of the listed situations and Rule 8-4-3b doesn't use the term "immediately", which has been used with other dead ball situations in 5-1. Everyone wants to read "immediately" into 8-4-3b just as it appears in 5-1. But it ain't there.

Consider this: In the play desribed in the OP, F2 upon receiving the ball tries a swipe tag on the runner she's obstructed & then quickly fires a throw to 3B to try to nail an advancing runner. If she brushes the obstructed runner with a tag, it's an "immediate" dead ball, I've been told in these posts. If she misses by an inch, playing action continues. [Editorial aside: does that really make sense? Why kill that play on a delayed dead ball?]

Continuing that thought further, if in the tag situation the throw beats the
runner at 3B & F5 tags her out, the play at 3B doesn't count, because the ball was immediately dead upon the tag. The umpire has to place the runner somewhere. Do you give her 3B? She was more than halfway to 3B when the ball became dead. But, not being affected in the normal sense by the obs., what base would she have reached without the obstruction? She'd have been out at 3B. Do you give it to her anyway, even as an unaffected runner? Or do you put her back on 2B because she was between bases when the ball was declared dead? If you put her on either base, you're protecting (or awarding a base to) an unobstructed, unaffected runner even though rule says only "each other runner affected by the obstruction will be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached..."

If F2's sweep tag just misses the runner, no immediate dead ball, playing action continues & runner heading to 3B is out.

So a touched or missed sweep tag that makes no difference as far as safe/out on the obstructed runner is concerned has a huge effect on the
subsequent play. That may be "just the way it is," but that doesn't seem right to me. And it makes it very important for the plate umpire to determine whether there is or isn't a tag, even though the tag has no effect on the play at home.

[Dakota]

You didn't answer my question. Where does the rule book use the term "dead ball" when it means "delayed dead ball"? You want to interpret the use of the term "dead ball" in 8-4-3b PENALTY-a as meaning "delayed dead ball". Prove it.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Dakota

You didn't answer my question. Where does the rule book use the term "dead ball" when it means "delayed dead ball"? You want to interpret the use of the term "dead ball" in 8-4-3b PENALTY-a as meaning "delayed dead ball". Prove it.

To add to this, in what situation is 8-4-3b being a delayed dead ball anything but surplusage. We already had a DDB before the put out so what exactly does that rule mean?
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[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by blueit

I understand what you're all saying & I really don't want to argue

Thank God. Could you imagine how long the posts would be if he DID want to argue?

[ronald]

there is no need to be captious.

by now it should follow that the dead ball call is 'immediate' given that all playing action needs to cease. when? right now which means immediate. wanting too much from the rule book.

gotta go library is closing

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by ronald

there is no need to be captious. ...

Are you trying to spoil our fun?

[argodad]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Thank God. Could you imagine how long the posts would be if he DID want to argue?

Well, y'all did compliment him on his well-written, complete, and clear first post!

[blueit]

It may well be my last post. This will be my last on this topic.

We've got a rule that doesn't say immediate or delayed dead ball (for the tag that makes no safe-out difference). We've got a comment that specifically says call dead ball at the end of the play, not upon the non-event tag. And we end up awarding bases or protection to runners not affected by the obstruction. None of those things seem to bother anyone here.

Evidently it's too much of a threat to the "this is how we call it" mindset
to even acknowledge that the rule is incomplete or the comment is wrong,
not to mention explore the WHY of whether a meaningless tag should kill further action. I was hoping for some real objective, 'big picture' discussion of why this SHOULD be called as it apparently is, and at least an acknowledgment that both the rule and comment need some improvement or (as to the comment) deletion.

Instead, it's just, over and over, "of course it's an immediate dead ball ... because that's how we call it."

I've taken an informal poll among 3-4 of the younger umps in our group & several of the old timers. The former group, after I've explained "how it's called", despite the casebook comment, was unanimous that "That doesn't make much sense." The latter group's reaction was, "That's how it's always been called," and they don't really want to think about whether it really makes sense or not -- that's just the way it is. It's apparent which group predominates here.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by blueit

It may well be my last post. This will be my last on this topic.

We've got a rule that doesn't say immediate or delayed dead ball (for the tag that makes no safe-out difference). We've got a comment that specifically says call dead ball at the end of the play, not upon the non-event tag. And we end up awarding bases or protection to runners not affected by the obstruction. None of those things seem to bother anyone here.

Evidently it's too much of a threat to the "this is how we call it" mindset
to even acknowledge that the rule is incomplete or the comment is wrong,
not to mention explore the WHY of whether a meaningless tag should kill further action. I was hoping for some real objective, 'big picture' discussion of why this SHOULD be called as it apparently is, and at least an acknowledgment that both the rule and comment need some improvement or (as to the comment) deletion.

Instead, it's just, over and over, "of course it's an immediate dead ball ... because that's how we call it."

I've taken an informal poll among 3-4 of the younger umps in our group & several of the old timers. The former group, after I've explained "how it's called", despite the casebook comment, was unanimous that "That doesn't make much sense." The latter group's reaction was, "That's how it's always been called," and they don't really want to think about whether it really makes sense or not -- that's just the way it is. It's apparent which group predominates here.

Let me repeat... You didn't answer my question. Where does the rule book use the term "dead ball" when it means "delayed dead ball"? You want to interpret the use of the term "dead ball" in 8-4-3b PENALTY-a as meaning "delayed dead ball". Prove it.

A couple of things you need to learn about the NFHS (or ASA or nearly any other) rule book. First, it is not a fine piece of writing. Second, it assumes the reader has familiarity with the game. Third, it uses defined terms as defined.

On point one, the so-called ambiguity you cite is not a big deal in light of points 2 and 3.

On point two, if you are unfamiliar with how the game is called, that is what clinics and training are for. Parsing the syntax of the rule book will only get you so far... see point number 1.

On point three, when the book says the ball is dead, it means it. Dead. Kaput. Playing action stops. Right then. That is the meaning of the word in the rules. It really doesn't matter what Webster might say, or whether a case play doesn't cover all possible variations or answer all possible questions. A dead ball is dead.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by blueit

It may well be my last post. This will be my last on this topic.

We've got a rule that doesn't say immediate or delayed dead ball (for the tag that makes no safe-out difference). We've got a comment that specifically says call dead ball at the end of the play, not upon the non-event tag. And we end up awarding bases or protection to runners not affected by the obstruction. None of those things seem to bother anyone here.

Evidently it's too much of a threat to the "this is how we call it" mindset
to even acknowledge that the rule is incomplete or the comment is wrong,
not to mention explore the WHY of whether a meaningless tag should kill further action. I was hoping for some real objective, 'big picture' discussion of why this SHOULD be called as it apparently is, and at least an acknowledgment that both the rule and comment need some improvement or (as to the comment) deletion.

Instead, it's just, over and over, "of course it's an immediate dead ball ... because that's how we call it."

I've taken an informal poll among 3-4 of the younger umps in our group & several of the old timers. The former group, after I've explained "how it's called", despite the casebook comment, was unanimous that "That doesn't make much sense." The latter group's reaction was, "That's how it's always been called," and they don't really want to think about whether it really makes sense or not -- that's just the way it is. It's apparent which group predominates here.

Besides Tom's excellent points, I'd just add one thing. You haven't been carefully reading the responses you are getting because this has been dealt with. For example, I provided you a case where your proposed alternative language wouldn't work and a case where your rule would just create a mess and you dropped those threads. Tom has very clearly pointed out that dead ball means dead ball and challenged you to provide a single rule book rule where that wasn't the case multiple times.
You assert that there is a case play with comment that is incorrect, but you haven't posted the whole text of it so what you see as a contradiction might well just be a case where you're missing a distinguishing factor of the play. The folks here will be happy to teach you as noted by the fact that they put up with me. They are veterans who like helping people and discussing interesting softball situations. But you have to put in a fair effort on your side and realize that you're not offering anything to them. They know how to call this and they know how to read the rule.
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