Award after obstruction on another runner

[blueit]

I cited the case book plays above: 8.4.3, Sit C ... no mention of immediate dead ball, and base award is "at the end of playing action." Not "end of playing action on the obstructed runner", as you would have it, but the end of playing action period. If runners are still moving on the bases, playing action is continuing.

More specifically, the comment to 5.1.2 reads:
"What is meant by 'delayed dead ball'? The term applies to situations in which an infraction is not to be ignored and, therefore, the umpire, at the end of playing action, declares the ball dead for the purpose of making an award or imposing a penalty. These sisutations include ... runner being obstructed."

Someone else mentioned 8.4.3, Sit A, which mentions calling time "at the end of playing action or when the obstructed runner is put out." [Note, if "whichever comes first" is implied, it's not stated.] But that Sit involves something different than the original post & relates to a different subsection of the rule involving a runner being obstructed by another fielder other than the one in possession of the ball.

And with all due respect, you keep trying to add "immediate" to the dead ball call in the rule. It's not in the rule. Following the timiing specified in comments, there would be no immediate dead ball on obstruction. It would be a delayed dead ball, at the end of playing action. That way, the dead ball timing would be the same, whether or not the obstructed runner was tagged. That would lessen confusion, not increase it. (And for what it's worth, it would make umpires' jobs easier: no
need to look for a meaningless tag after obstruction. Instead, they could focus on the continuing action on the basepaths.)

Call it lawyering if you want. I call it reading the casebook as we're repeatedly told to do & trying to do what it says in the absence of any specificity in the rule about when to call dead ball.

And, by the way, your prior post does not given an ex. of how an obstructed runner can be "put out" other than being tagged.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by blueit

Call it lawyering if you want. I call it reading the casebook as we're repeatedly told to do & trying to do what it says in the absence of any specificity in the rule about when to call dead ball.

I mean the whole case play so we can see what it's talking about. I'm not adding anything to the deadball. When a batter is hit with a pitch it's a dead ball. That's not the same thing as a delayed dead ball because it is immediately dead.

But that Sit involves something different than the original post & relates to a different subsection of the rule involving a runner being obstructed by another fielder other than the one in possession of the ball.

How could she be obstructed by anyone but a fielder other than the one in posession of the ball?
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[Dakota]

Originally Posted by blueit

...And with all due respect, you keep trying to add "immediate" to the dead ball call in the rule. It's not in the rule....

Actually, the onus is on you here. There is a difference between a delayed dead ball and a dead ball. One is delayed and the other isn't. They have different definitions and different applications.

Rule 8-4-3b PENALTY-a states conditions when the ball is dead. The rule states, "If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base that would have been reached had there not been obstruction, a dead ball is called..." How do you call a dead ball? How do you do that while keeping the ball live? How is it reasonable to interpret this sentence to mean "when you get around to it, call a dead ball"?

Since you want to interpret that as a delayed dead ball merely because they do not state (redundantly) "immediately", show another example of the rule book using the term "dead ball" when it is interpreted as "delayed dead ball."

[blueit]

Not "when you get around to it", but when playing action ends, as the Comment to Sit 5.1.2 instructs.

I certainly agree that dead ball & delayed dead ball are different. A dead ball is immediate, a ddb isn't. Obstruction is a delayed dead ball. Indeed, Rule 5, Art. 1 does use the term "immediately" to describe certain dead ball situations.
A "put out" on an obstructed runner isn't one of the listed situations and Rule 8-4-3b doesn't use the term "immediately", which has been used with other dead ball situations in 5-1. Everyone wants to read "immediately" into 8-4-3b just as it appears in 5-1. But it ain't there.

Consider this: In the play desribed in the OP, F2 upon receiving the ball tries a swipe tag on the runner she's obstructed & then quickly fires a throw to 3B to try to nail an advancing runner. If she brushes the obstructed runner with a tag, it's an "immediate" dead ball, I've been told in these posts. If she misses by an inch, playing action continues. [Editorial aside: does that really make sense? Why kill that play on a delayed dead ball?]

Continuing that thought further, if in the tag situation the throw beats the
runner at 3B & F5 tags her out, the play at 3B doesn't count, because the ball was immediately dead upon the tag. The umpire has to place the runner somewhere. Do you give her 3B? She was more than halfway to 3B when the ball became dead. But, not being affected in the normal sense by the obs., what base would she have reached without the obstruction? She'd have been out at 3B. Do you give it to her anyway, even as an unaffected runner? Or do you put her back on 2B because she was between bases when the ball was declared dead? If you put her on either base, you're protecting (or awarding a base to) an unobstructed, unaffected runner even though rule says only "each other runner affected by the obstruction will be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached..."

If F2's sweep tag just misses the runner, no immediate dead ball, playing action continues & runner heading to 3B is out.

So a touched or missed sweep tag that makes no difference as far as safe/out on the obstructed runner is concerned has a huge effect on the
subsequent play. That may be "just the way it is," but that doesn't seem right to me. And it makes it very important for the plate umpire to determine whether there is or isn't a tag, even though the tag has no effect on the play at home.

[Dakota]

You didn't answer my question. Where does the rule book use the term "dead ball" when it means "delayed dead ball"? You want to interpret the use of the term "dead ball" in 8-4-3b PENALTY-a as meaning "delayed dead ball". Prove it.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Dakota

You didn't answer my question. Where does the rule book use the term "dead ball" when it means "delayed dead ball"? You want to interpret the use of the term "dead ball" in 8-4-3b PENALTY-a as meaning "delayed dead ball". Prove it.

To add to this, in what situation is 8-4-3b being a delayed dead ball anything but surplusage. We already had a DDB before the put out so what exactly does that rule mean?
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