Illegal Pitch? What is Your Opinion? (Video)

[BretMan]

Assuming that these pitches were being thrown in a game...Would you be calling an Illegal Pitch?

YouTube - Pitching Video

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Assuming that these pitches were being thrown in a game...Would you be calling an Illegal Pitch?

YouTube - Pitching Video

After seeing the video, yes

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Assuming that these pitches were being thrown in a game...Would you be calling an Illegal Pitch?

YouTube - Pitching Video

Illegal..but needed the slow motion frames to see it.

[AtlUmpSteve]

At the risk of restarting an old disagreement with WMB, that video is a perfect example of a version of a crow hop despite the hands being together; the pitcher is driving off, and replanting, and gaining a new impetus from the second location.

I believe he has stated in other posts that this is a legal ending of the drag; I don't agree.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

At the risk of restarting an old disagreement with WMB, that video is a perfect example of a version of a crow hop despite the hands being together; the pitcher is driving off, and replanting, and gaining a new impetus from the second location.

I believe he has stated in other posts that this is a legal ending of the drag; I don't agree.

I still don't get the "hands" inclusion in a crow hop issue. In the video, the hands are clearly separated prior to the foot exiting the area of the plate.

[PSUchem]

I would call her for the leap rather than the crowhop. From the slow motion, it is obvious that she is airborn for a split second. If you were to put a piece of paper in front of and touching the pitching plate, it would not be drug along with her dragging foot. It hardly seems like her weight is on her back leg enough to consider it a new push-off point. Additionally, I don't agree with some statements that suggest that the drag foot must be turned over with only the toe dragging.

Would everyone who thinks that the girl mentioned above crowhops also think that this is a crow hop?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-cJn...eature=related

or this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6km9...eature=related

or these?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U82m...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDBWK...eature=related

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by PSUchem

I would call her for the leap rather than the crowhop. From the slow motion, it is obvious that she is airborn for a split second. If you were to put a piece of paper in front of and touching the pitching plate, it would not be drug along with her dragging foot. It hardly seems like her weight is on her back leg enough to consider it a new push-off point. Additionally, I don't agree with some statements that suggest that the drag foot must be turned over with only the toe dragging.

Would everyone who thinks that the girl mentioned above crowhops also think that this is a crow hop?

YouTube - Katie Watkins Class of 2011 Softball Pitching Skills Video

or this one?

YouTube - Taylor Kelm - 2011 Pitcher

or these?

YouTube - Jess Cannon Softball Skills Video
YouTube - Samantha McGilvray Softball Skills Video, Class of 2010

Curious to see everyone's opinion on these.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by PSUchem

I would call her for the leap rather than the crowhop.

While, yes, she does go airborne, IMO this is not a leap. She's landing, pushing and dragging from a 2nd point prior to the release. Therefore, by definition, this is a crow hop.

[shagpal]

I thought I saw a slight crow hop, but slow mo exaggerates everything. lmk if I'm wrong.

[KJUmp]

Wilkens-Illegal on all 6 pitches
Klem-Illegal on all 6 pitches
Cannon-Backdoor screwball-Illegal
Rise&Curve-couldn't see anything illegal from video
McGilvary-Fastball-Illegal
Changs, curve, drop,rise-Legal

Of the IP's...some were crow hops, some were leaps.

[Coach Al]

If you read the rule, it tell it all:
J. Pushing off with the pivot foot from a place other than the pitcher’s plate is
illegal.
K. (Women’s and all JO Play) Pushing off and dragging the pivot foot in contact
with the ground is required. If a hole has been created, the pivot foot may
drag no higher than the level plane of the ground.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Illegal..but needed the slow motion frames to see it.

I don't know about that. I saw it immediately. We've had several discussions around here about how the crow hop name gives (especially newer) officials the wrong idea of what to look for. It is still illegal even if it is a crow slide.

With that being said, if you are ever unsure, just go brush the plate and it is usually obvious when you see the consistent push off point in front of the pitching plate.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

I don't know about that. I saw it immediately. We've had several discussions around here about how the crow hop name gives (especially newer) officials the wrong idea of what to look for. It is still illegal even if it is a crow slide.

With that being said, if you are ever unsure, just go brush the plate and it is usually obvious when you see the consistent push off point in front of the pitching plate.

Dan,
Thanks for the tip..I'll definitely use it. My comment about "needing slow motion" is not so much about being a newer (inexperienced) official. I just could not (from the video) definitely determine if she was illegal at full speed from either the rear or the side view....to the point of being able to explain why (if asked) it was an IP when I called it. This is not say that I would not have been able to see the gap between her pivot foot and the ground or the absence of drag, or the replant of her pivot foot if I had been on the field....just couldn't clearly see what part wasn't legal at first pass.
BTW...even viewing again AFTER reading your post...I still needed slo-mo to catch it.
Thanks again for the tip.

[PSUchem]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Wilkens-Illegal on all 6 pitches
Klem-Illegal on all 6 pitches
Cannon-Backdoor screwball-Illegal
Rise&Curve-couldn't see anything illegal from video
McGilvary-Fastball-Illegal
Changs, curve, drop,rise-Legal

Of the IP's...some were crow hops, some were leaps.

So is what I am hearing that everyone would rule these pitchers illegal? If so, would you call it consistently during a game? Have you ever experienced pitchers such as these?

I thought that the qualification that a crow hop happens before the hands separate put this issue to rest, but it appears there is still controversy.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by PSUchem

So is what I am hearing that everyone would rule these pitchers illegal? If so, would you call it consistently during a game? Have you ever experienced pitchers such as these?

I thought that the qualification that a crow hop happens before the hands separate put this issue to rest, but it appears there is still controversy.

Why would you not call it consistently throughout the game? If you see it clearly and call a pitcher for an IP...if it happens again you call it. She's obligated by the rules to pitch legally. Pitcher's gain an advantage when they throw illegally. I remember hearing/reading once that for every foot closer to the plate a pitcher can get before she releases the ball, it adds 3 mph to the speed of the pitch.

>Are illegal pitches tough to identify? Somtimes-YES..
>Do you need to definitely know for sure why it's not a legal pitch and be positive of what you saw...or did not see (Ex.-absence of drag)? YES.
>WHY? Because you have to be able to explain it to the pitcher and coach if asked.
>Do you have to be prepared to take some complaining from the coach for calling it? PROBABLY.
>Do you need to have the guts to continue to call IP's when and where they occur throughout the game? YES.

Question..what do the hands separating have to do with determining if the pitcher crow hopped?