Illegal Pitch? What is Your Opinion? (Video)

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

...Question..what do the hands separating have to do with determining if the pitcher crow hopped?

What either got this discussion started, or added fuel to it, was an explanation from NFHS.

From the NFHS 2009 Rule Book, Points of Emphasis, Pitching:

B. Crow Hop. A “crow hop” is defined as a re-plant of the pivot foot prior to releasing the ball. This can be done by sliding the foot in front of the pitching plate, lifting the pivot foot and stepping forward, and/or jumping forward with the pivot foot off the pitching plate prior to starting the pitch. To help determine whether the pitcher has replanted her pivot foot, the umpire should look at the location of the pivot foot when the hands separate to start the pitch. If the pivot foot is off and in front of the pitching plate before the hands separate to start the pitch, this would be a “crow hop” and an illegal pitch shall be called by the base umpire.

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Question..what do the hands separating have to do with determining if the pitcher crow hopped?

Depends on who you talk to but from what I have been trained a crow hop is starting the pitch from somewhere other than the pitching plate, pushing off creating a second impeitus(SP?) (starting point) the pitch starts when the hands are seperated, so hand position has EVERYTHING to do with if it's a crow hop or not. Again there are some on this board that have VERY strong feelings the other way, some look at those videos and see things differently and wouldn't rule illegal. This is difficult since someone is right and someone is wrong, and it would be great to get some official interpretations on close videos like these to help clear some of this up.

I look at some of these videos and it looks like the hip is closing to me, not that they are illegal. If I remember correctly once the front foot lands the drag foot can come up off the ground again, right? So if the front foot is planted and then they push off the back foot as they are releasing the ball how is that gaining an illegal advantage? What makes that illegal? 1) Both feet aren't in the air at the same time, so no leap. 2) Pitch was started when hands were seperated on pitching plate, so no crow hop. 3) Front foot is where it originally landed when she took her stride off the pitching plate so how is she gaining an advantage that is in conflict with the rules?

[WestMichiganBlue]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Question..what do the hands separating have to do with determining if the pitcher crow hopped?

ASA - RS #40

NFHS - POE (last in 2009 rulebook)


WMB

[JefferMC]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

If I remember correctly once the front foot lands the drag foot can come up off the ground again, right?

I can't find anything in the rules to prohibit it.

So if the front foot is planted and then they push off the back foot as they are releasing the ball how is that gaining an illegal advantage? What makes that illegal? 1) Both feet aren't in the air at the same time, so no leap. 2) Pitch was started when hands were seperated on pitching plate, so no crow hop. 3) Front foot is where it originally landed when she took her stride off the pitching plate so how is she gaining an advantage that is in conflict with the rules?

6-1.2c "... Pushing off with the pivot foot from a place other than the pitcher's plate is illegal."


So, whether it is a "crow hop" or not, if you push off from somewhere other than the pitcher's plate, it's an illegal pitch. At this point I think we would be well served to dispense with the terms "crow hop" and "leap" since there are many arguments about what constitutes which term and stick with these two statements:

Pivot foot must only push off from the pitcher's plate.
Pivot foot must remain in contact with the plate or the ground (or the plane of the ground when the inevitible hole gets there).

[KJUmp]

Dakota, Dave, WMB...thanks for the info.

[shagpal]

the sad thing is that this gals video was made to promote herself to recruiters.

I see lots of girls making softball videos of themselves, and putting them up on youtube for scholastic purposes.

[jkumpire]

But isn't that a garden variety crow hop?

[vcblue]

She does not push off a second time on many of these pitches. You really need to look at the knee to make a good call. In many of these pitches the knee continues forward and the foot kicks out. On a few you can see the second push. Also be careful looking for that hole as suggested earlier. That hole is made just the same with the kick out of the foot.

IMO you really need to think about the leg mechanic when determining if this is an illegal pitch. If it remains straight I have nothing. If it bends and straightens out I have an IP.

[Coach Al]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

I can't find anything in the rules to prohibit it.



6-1.2c "... Pushing off with the pivot foot from a place other than the pitcher's plate is illegal."


So, whether it is a "crow hop" or not, if you push off from somewhere other than the pitcher's plate, it's an illegal pitch. At this point I think we would be well served to dispense with the terms "crow hop" and "leap" since there are many arguments about what constitutes which term and stick with these two statements:

Pivot foot must only push off from the pitcher's plate.
Pivot foot must remain in contact with the plate or the ground (or the plane of the ground when the inevitible hole gets there).

It would seem to me that if a pitcher separated her hands to start the pitch and had one of her feet out of contact with the rubber it would be an illegal pitch because of the fact she did not start in a legal position.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by vcblue

She does not push off a second time on many of these pitches. You really need to look at the knee to make a good call. In many of these pitches the knee continues forward and the foot kicks out. On a few you can see the second push. Also be careful looking for that hole as suggested earlier. That hole is made just the same with the kick out of the foot.

IMO you really need to think about the leg mechanic when determining if this is an illegal pitch. If it remains straight I have nothing. If it bends and straightens out I have an IP.

Perhaps....they're clues, and a they're good ones, but be careful, if it's straight but still off the ground you could still have a replant...or maybe not.
Look at that back leg, if it's bent it's still bearing her weight, an excellent indicator that a replant is about to occur and that her drag has started from a from a second spot in front of the pitcher's plate.
Remember also, that if we're asked by the coach/pitcher for an explanation as to why the pitch was an IP, "her leg was bent and then straightened out" is not language that appears in the definition of an IP in the rule book.

[vcblue]

Coach in my judgment it is legal. Nothing else needs to be said. If it is straight but of the ground I have leaping and an IP.