Taping over the knob (ASA)

[NCASAUmp]

This has been brought up at a couple of our clinics, and the room was divided.

ASA 3-1-B states:

Safety knob: The knob shall have a diameter of at least 1.6 inches with no sharp edges. The knob will be permanently attached to the bat and may be taped with safety tape.

There are those who believe that tape may be ON the safety knob (ie., the sides), but can't go OVER and completely cover the knob. There are others (and I'm included) who believe that the rule, as written, does not prohibit putting tape over the knob in any particular fashion whatsoever.

The concern is a valid one: bat doctors often go in through the safety knob to remove the safety rod, endload bats, or do other wonderful things to the bat. Taping over the safety knob can hide the signs that a bat has been doctored, potentially putting players at risk.

However, I maintain that with the rule written in its current form, there is nothing that we can do to prohibit taping over the knob.

What say you all?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

This has been brought up at a couple of our clinics, and the room was divided.

ASA 3-1-B states:


There are those who believe that tape may be ON the safety knob (ie., the sides), but can't go OVER and completely cover the knob. There are others (and I'm included) who believe that the rule, as written, does not prohibit putting tape over the knob in any particular fashion whatsoever.

The concern is a valid one: bat doctors often go in through the safety knob to remove the safety rod, endload bats, or do other wonderful things to the bat. Taping over the safety knob can hide the signs that a bat has been doctored, potentially putting players at risk.

However, I maintain that with the rule written in its current form, there is nothing that we can do to prohibit taping over the knob.

What say you all?

Taping over the knob has been and still is completely legal. Nothing new here.

Since the knob was one to the two cited primary entrance points to alter a bat, a change in the rule was proposed to eliminate taping the knob two years ago and never made it out of any committee. The author of the change noted that allowing the knob to be taped permitted concealment of unauthorized access to the inside of the bat.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Taping over the knob has been and still is completely legal. Nothing new here.

Since the knob was one to the two cited primary entrance points to alter a bat, a change in the rule was proposed to eliminate taping the knob two years ago and never made it out of any committee. The author of the change noted that allowing the knob to be taped permitted concealment of unauthorized access to the inside of the bat.

I agree, but the frustrating thing is that I'm still hearing that this is illegal from various sources. Even heard an umpire say so at a National. Those who are "on the fence" say that the rule is "vague."

It's not vague. It's in black and white.

[shagpal]

ask yourself how taping over a knob can be of any advantage or harm, or could affect play.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

This has been brought up at a couple of our clinics, and the room was divided.

ASA 3-1-B states:


There are those who believe that tape may be ON the safety knob (ie., the sides), but can't go OVER and completely cover the knob. There are others (and I'm included) who believe that the rule, as written, does not prohibit putting tape over the knob in any particular fashion whatsoever.

The concern is a valid one: bat doctors often go in through the safety knob to remove the safety rod, endload bats, or do other wonderful things to the bat. Taping over the safety knob can hide the signs that a bat has been doctored, potentially putting players at risk.

However, I maintain that with the rule written in its current form, there is nothing that we can do to prohibit taping over the knob.

What say you all?

Bottom line; no matter what they would like the rule to read, there can be safety tape on the knob. Anyone that thinks it is vague simply is looking to justify reading something into the rule that isn't there. It doesn't have any exclusion or limit; they can put safety tape on the knob. Some, a little, a lot.

Sure, the bat doctors can go in that end, and the tape might cover that. You might note that the other point of entry still requires an endcap; using the same logic, we should keep that endcap off so we can see if it has doctored there, too. But the rule is equally clear on that; to be considered legal, the endcap must be on, and appear to have been on since the factory.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by shagpal

ask yourself how taping over a knob can be of any advantage or harm, or could affect play.

I rarely ask myself any such question about any aspect of the game. I have heard that logic used too many times to justify not making a call that really should have been made. My concern is what do the rules of the association I am working for say is proper or improper.

[shagpal]

it's possible that a player innocently taped up a loose knob thinking it's fine to do so. I think they make those rules to limit legal liability of us umpires, assuming, tape = hiding something underneath. even if we ask players to remove the original manufacturers grip, which a good bat doctor would put back undetectable, do most umpires really know what is underneath? most doctoring occurs thru the endcap anyways.

umpiring is always done with judgment, not void of it. why don't you ask questions? last year, knobcuffs where illegal. this year, it's all good. someone asked some questions, hence the change.

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

I rarely ask myself any such question about any aspect of the game. I have heard that logic used too many times to justify not making a call that really should have been made. My concern is what do the rules of the association I am working for say is proper or improper.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by shagpal

it's possible that a player innocently taped up a loose knob thinking it's fine to do so. I think they make those rules to limit legal liability of us umpires, assuming, tape = hiding something underneath. even if we ask players to remove the original manufacturers grip, which a good bat doctor would put back undetectable, do most umpires really know what is underneath? most doctoring occurs thru the endcap anyways.

umpiring is always done with judgment, not void of it. why don't you ask questions? last year, knobcuffs where illegal. this year, it's all good. someone asked some questions, hence the change.

I don't believe that an association would write a rule intended to keep the "big, bad umpire" from abusing their power and strip search players' bats. If they're worried about umpires abusing their powers in this fashion, they'd get them the hell off of the field and find someone with a little more common sense.

ASA drew the line in the sand with respect to taping the safety knob. It's allowed.

And yes, I have a pretty good idea what's underneath a stock grip. Varies from model to model.

[shagpal]

most, not all. I wouldn't take it personally, dave. just because I said most have never taken off a grip, doesn't mean you haven't.

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I don't believe that an association would write a rule intended to keep the "big, bad umpire" from abusing their power and strip search players' bats. If they're worried about umpires abusing their powers in this fashion, they'd get them the hell off of the field and find someone with a little more common sense.

ASA drew the line in the sand with respect to taping the safety knob. It's allowed.

And yes, I have a pretty good idea what's underneath a stock grip. Varies from model to model.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by shagpal

most, not all. I wouldn't take it personally, dave. just because I said most have never taken off a grip, doesn't mean you haven't.

I've been doing this too long to take anything anyone says personally.

Unless, of course, you make it personal.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by shagpal

it's possible that a player innocently taped up a loose knob thinking it's fine to do so. I think they make those rules to limit legal liability of us umpires, assuming, tape = hiding something underneath. even if we ask players to remove the original manufacturers grip, which a good bat doctor would put back undetectable, do most umpires really know what is underneath? most doctoring occurs thru the endcap anyways.

umpiring is always done with judgment, not void of it. why don't you ask questions? last year, knobcuffs where illegal. this year, it's all good. someone asked some questions, hence the change.

Obviously you missed the entire gist of my comment. I did not say "don't ask questions," or "I never ask any questions."

But...that's okay that you didn't get it.

[shagpal]

what I meant was, and I'll wager, most umps have never seen a bat with the original grip off to know what to look for. that's all I meant. I didn't mean to suggest that you would or wouldn't know if that's how it came off to you.

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I've been doing this too long to take anything anyone says personally.

Unless, of course, you make it personal.

[shagpal]

what I missed, was why you said, "I rarely ask myself any such question about any aspect of the game". maybe I'm wrong, but that seems robotic to take rules at face value. I think asking and questioning is healthy for the game. it's a dynamic game that keeps changing.

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

Obviously you missed the entire gist of my comment. I did not say "don't ask questions," or "I never ask any questions."

But...that's okay that you didn't get it.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by shagpal

what I missed, was why you said, "I rarely ask myself any such question about any aspect of the game". maybe I'm wrong, but that seems robotic to take rules at face value. I think asking and questioning is healthy for the game. it's a dynamic game that keeps changing.

But it should not change from game to game without it being in writing beforehand.

ASA edits the rules. We don't. If you want a rule change, propose it later this fall or in your local leagues. Until then, stick with the rules AS WRITTEN, or you'll end up floating up $h1t creek without a paddle.

[shagpal]

the rules are the rules. some umpires don't even check bats.

what part of the rule are you suggesting is being changed by "me", as in, if "I" want to change the rules? I mentioned questioning rules is healthy, enforcing rules is required.

have you had your coffee today?

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

But it should not change from game to game without it being in writing beforehand.

ASA edits the rules. We don't. If you want a rule change, propose it later this fall or in your local leagues. Until then, stick with the rules AS WRITTEN, or you'll end up floating up $h1t creek without a paddle.