Ground Rule

[Big Kahuna]

Coach comes out for pregame, and while going over the ground rules announces that his foul poles are in fair territory, and that any ball that hits a foul pole above the level of the fence is a home run. Is that legal? I don't have my rule book handy, but it seems to me that any ball that hits a foul pole in fair territory should be in play.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Big Kahuna

Coach comes out for pregame, and while going over the ground rules announces that his foul poles are in fair territory, and that any ball that hits a foul pole above the level of the fence is a home run. Is that legal? I don't have my rule book handy, but it seems to me that any ball that hits a foul pole in fair territory should be in play.

Please tell me you are kidding? This isn't a ground rule, it is a fact of life in every rule set of which I am aware.

ASA 8.5.H & RS #26
NCAA 1.40.6

[umpirebob71]

Wow

[shagpal]

are his foul poles plumb?

Originally Posted by Big Kahuna

Coach comes out for pregame, and while going over the ground rules announces that his foul poles are in fair territory, and that any ball that hits a foul pole above the level of the fence is a home run. Is that legal? I don't have my rule book handy, but it seems to me that any ball that hits a foul pole in fair territory should be in play.

[BretMan]

NCAA definition of foul pole placement:

The pole...shall be immediately adjacent to or attached to the outside of the home run fence.

For what it's worth, this is the same foul pole placement specified by Major League Baseball. The pole must be located on the backside of the fence and extend vertically from that point. It is located entirely in both fair territory and dead ball territory. Thus, a batted ball striking it becomes both fair and dead.

This isn't to suggest that we take our softball rules from Major League Baseball, or apply college rules to youth games, but rather to show that there is some precedence that the foul poles not be located in front of the fence, in live ball territory.

I don't work NCAA ball, so I'll leave it to the NCAA folks to say if they would have an issue with this.

For FED and ASA, I can find no such provisions regarding foul pole placement. In those games, I would be forced to go with their rules that say a fly ball striking the pole is a home run.

[Az.Ump]

12.3.5 Home plate. The batter is awarded home plate with no liability to be put
out:
12.3.5.1 When a fair batted fly ball strikes the foul pole above the fence level
or leaves the playing field in fair territory without being caught, touching
the ground or going through the fence even if the ball is deflected by a
fielder.

Paul

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Az.Ump

12.3.5 Home plate. The batter is awarded home plate with no liability to be put
out:
12.3.5.1 When a fair batted fly ball strikes the foul pole above the fence level
or leaves the playing field in fair territory without being caught, touching
the ground or going through the fence even if the ball is deflected by a
fielder.

Paul

BretMan was referring more specifically to the actual placement of the foul pole, not any rules regarding how the foul pole affects play.

The foul pole is just one of those things that is "assumed that everyone understands."

[shagpal]

if the poles are not fully erected upright, then the poles may possibly be erectile dysfunctional and should be considered impotent and unsuitable for play, and put away.

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

BretMan was referring more specifically to the actual placement of the foul pole, not any rules regarding how the foul pole affects play.

The foul pole is just one of those things that is "assumed that everyone understands."

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by Az.Ump

12.3.5 Home plate. The batter is awarded home plate with no liability to be put
out:
12.3.5.1 When a fair batted fly ball strikes the foul pole above the fence level
or leaves the playing field in fair territory without being caught, touching
the ground or going through the fence even if the ball is deflected by a
fielder.

Paul

I understand all that. My point was that the above rules assume a properly placed foul pole. With respect to NCAA rules, the foul poles in the first post do not adhere to rule 2.11

**Edited to add: Now, let me beat myself up a little before anyone else gets the chance to. My first reading of the OP led me to believe that the coach claimed the foul poles were not just in fair territory, but in live ball territory- that is, on the inside of the fence. After reading it again, that isn't clearly the case.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by BretMan

My first reading of the OP led me to believe that the coach claimed the foul poles were not just in fair territory, but in live ball territory- that is, on the inside of the fence. After reading it again, that isn't clearly the case.

That is an understandable assumption because I cannot see any other reason a coach would make such statement.

I'm guessing that the statement was made because somewhere along the way a visiting coach argued that a HR wasn't a HR because the ball hit the foul pole which wasn't beyond the fence and convinced the umpire to rule as such.

However, the manner in which the rule reads, any batted ball which hits the foul pole above the fence line is a home run.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Big Kahuna

Coach comes out for pregame, and while going over the ground rules announces that his foul poles are in fair territory, and that any ball that hits a foul pole above the level of the fence is a home run. Is that legal? I don't have my rule book handy, but it seems to me that any ball that hits a foul pole in fair territory should be in play.

Please clarify for us....EXACTLY where were the foul poles in relation to the fence. From your post, it's not clear as to whether you are not clear on the pertinent rule(s), or that this particular filed had some sought of "odd" placement of their foul poles in relation to the outfield fence.

[Big Kahuna]

The foul poles were inside instead of outside the fence. They were on the line like they should be, just on the wrong side of the fence. This all came up because at the pregame conference for a game last week, the plate umpire declared that since the poles were inside the fence, any ball that hit one would be in play. Later on that week, at another field where the poles were inside, the coach of that team announced that any ball that hit the pole above the fence was a home run. Same foul pole position, two different ground rules. I am just trying to get it right.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Big Kahuna

The foul poles were inside instead of outside the fence. They were on the line like they should be, just on the wrong side of the fence. This all came up because at the pregame conference for a game last week, the plate umpire declared that since the poles were inside the fence, any ball that hit one would be in play. Later on that week, at another field where the poles were inside, the coach of that team announced that any ball that hit the pole above the fence was a home run. Same foul pole position, two different ground rules. I am just trying to get it right.

Well, the rule states that if the ball hits the foul pole above the fence it is a home run. While it may be true that the specs state that the foul pole be adjacent to or attached to the outside of the fence, the rule declaring the ball a home run really does not take into consideration where the pole is actually located.