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View Poll Results: Is the advice to "no call" throwing out the direction of the Umpire Manual??
Yes, it is a contradiction. 1 3.23%
No, I see no contradiction there. 28 90.32%
Not sure, there could be a contradiction. 2 6.45%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 13, 2010, 09:44pm
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Appeal a turn Poll

In the thread Appeal a Turn to Second, Shagpal apparently believes that the responses of Mike (IrishMafia), Tom (Dakota) and I (AtlUmpSteve) contradict the NFHS Umpire Manual. I believe we all agree that the attempted appeal doesn't meet the requirements of an appeal, so cannot be honored; the sole issue, as I understand it, is if the response to "do nothing" contradicts the wording of the Umpire Manual, which says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFHS Umpire Manual
If the appeal is directed to the wrong umpire, that umpire should point to the responsible umpire, call his/her name and indicate that the defense wishes to make an appeal. The responsible umpire should then step forward and make the call.
The interpretation of Shagpal appears to be that using the word "wishes" in this sentence means that any time the defense asks an appeal related question, whether appealed properly or not, that the umpire is obligated to make a call; that "no call" contradicts this part of the Umpire Manual. The interpretation of Mike, Tom and Steve (assuming I am not putting words in anyone's mouth, or missing their points) is that this sentence applies ONLY in the narrow context of the defense asking the wrong umpire, that no matter which umpire they approach, an appeal has to made in accordance with rules on making a proper appeal in order to get an answer; otherwise, you are violating the rule of an umpire not making a ruling unless appealed (properly).

Assuming I have stated the positions correctly, I was just wondering how many other of our forum members see this advice to "no call" as a contradiction to the NFHS Umpire Manual, and if the Rulebook therefore contradicts the Umpire Manual, or if Shagpal is really the lone voice seeing this (I don't see anyone else arguing that position, although some hesitated initially). So, this is my first attempt at setting up a poll on this board; please vote.
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Last edited by AtlUmpSteve; Sat Feb 13, 2010 at 10:20pm.
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Old Sat Feb 13, 2010, 10:46pm
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I vote a "no call" does not contradict that part of the Umpire Manual.

"If the appeal is directed to the wrong umpire . . ." presumes a properly-executed appeal, just directed to the wrong umpire. Otherwise, a team could convert an improperly-executed attempted appeal to a de facto proper appeal merely by directing it to the wrong umpire. My mama always told me two wrongs don't make a right.

BTW, I consider the umpire manual to contain guidelines, not rules. If a proper appeal is directed to the wrong umpire who fails to refer it to the proper umpire, I don't think that could be the subject of a sustainable protest. Am I wrong? On the baseball board, the Fed ump manual is frequently denigrated, with recommendations that you don't confuse yourself by ever reading it, just go by the CCA red book.
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Old Sat Feb 13, 2010, 10:49pm
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Everyone, please cast a vote in the poll at the top; that format supposedly guarantees one vote per registered member, and provides the stats, without attempting to count the replies.
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Old Sun Feb 14, 2010, 02:29pm
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steve, can you rephrase the poll to reflect a situation that reflects working as a crew, which is where you are pulling your quote from the umpires manual?

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Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve View Post
Everyone, please cast a vote in the poll at the top; that format supposedly guarantees one vote per registered member, and provides the stats, without attempting to count the replies.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 14, 2010, 11:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shagpal View Post
steve, can you rephrase the poll to reflect a situation that reflects working as a crew, which is where you are pulling your quote from the umpires manual?
Still missing the point, it would appear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFHS Umpire Manual
"If the appeal is directed to the wrong umpire
Working as a crew means not throwing your partner under the bus. I don't have to know if the runner left early, missed a base, or made an attempt toward second when it is my partner's call, but I sure as he!! need to know what are the requirements to properly appeal every one of them. If the requirements aren't met by the person addressing me when it should be addressed to my partner, my answer is ......
.........
.........
.........
"That's not an appeal".

Still, not a contradiction from the manual. "If the appeal" is an appeal directed to the wrong umpire, we direct it to the right umpire. If not an appeal, there is nothing to redirect. Still not addressing what they wish to do, they haven't made an appeal until they actually make one.

That's working as a crew. Even though that (working as a crew) isn't actually stated as part of the appeals section in the manual you have cited repeatedly, your description of the intent.
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Last edited by AtlUmpSteve; Sun Feb 14, 2010 at 11:36pm.
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Old Sun Feb 14, 2010, 11:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve View Post
"If the appeal" is an appeal directed to the wrong umpire, we direct it to the right umpire. If not an appeal, there is nothing to redirect. Still not addressing what they wish to do, they haven't made an appeal until they actually make one.
Follow-up: If a live ball appeal is made to you, the wrong umpire, do you address that immediately or stay with your assignments and address it afterwards?
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Old Mon Feb 15, 2010, 12:43am
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steve, just address and argue the umpires manual as it's written. don't argue the merits of what you would do, that's already been established. that point is just going circles now.

ask yourself why the umpires at the top of our game would even consider using such a concept as "wishes" in the manual, and in that context, and what the were they thinking when they inserted it in. I am not responsible for that word appearing. our sanctioning body put it in, so challenge them, what they wrote, and what you think was omitted or not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve View Post
Still missing the point, it would appear.


Working as a crew means not throwing your partner under the bus. I don't have to know if the runner left early, missed a base, or made an attempt toward second when it is my partner's call, but I sure as he!! need to know what are the requirements to properly appeal every one of them. If the requirements aren't met by the person addressing me when it should be addressed to my partner, my answer is ......
.........
.........
.........
"That's not an appeal".

Still, not a contradiction from the manual. "If the appeal" is an appeal directed to the wrong umpire, we direct it to the right umpire. If not an appeal, there is nothing to redirect. Still not addressing what they wish to do, they haven't made an appeal until they actually make one.

That's working as a crew. Even though that (working as a crew) isn't actually stated as part of the appeals section in the manual you have cited repeatedly, your description of the intent.
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Old Mon Feb 15, 2010, 11:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shagpal View Post

ask yourself why the umpires at the top of our game would even consider using such a concept as "wishes" in the manual, and in that context, and what the were they thinking when they inserted it in. I am not responsible for that word appearing. our sanctioning body put it in, so challenge them, what they wrote, and what you think was omitted or not.
You don't seem to realize that you have been arguing with two of them for weeks now.
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Last edited by Skahtboi; Mon Feb 15, 2010 at 02:56pm.
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Old Mon Feb 15, 2010, 01:35pm
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it's clear. what they have not made clear is why doing nothing is the ONLY thing acceptable. remember, that is my issue w/ the do nothing camp, they insist everyone to do nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skahtboi View Post
You don't seem to realize that you have been arguing with two of them for weeks now.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 16, 2010, 02:21am
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My dip s*** ometer......... thinks an oil change is due.....
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 16, 2010, 12:25pm
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Hmmmmm...only one vote for "it's a contradiction"


wonder who that was.....
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