Batter-runner overruns 1st base, makes an "attempt" to go to 2nd....

[Stevetheump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Then we may not agree. How can you not believe in something which obviously occurs?

Either the BR runs through the base or they do not. The only other option is stopping on the base. If the BR does anything which makes me feel I need to be prepared to head toward 2B, whether a turn, deke, even the dip of a shoulder, IMJ, the runner is in jeopardy. I'm not referring to slight movements, but something that gets my attention.

I've seen MLB infielders (esp at 2nd base on a hit and run), "deke" the runner in to thinking they are about to receive a thrown ball. Now, IF the runner slows down or stops because of this "dekeing," isn't that "obstruction?" If so, the MLB umps aren't calling it.

[okla21fan]

Originally Posted by Stevetheump

I've seen MLB infielders (esp at 2nd base on a hit and run), "deke" the runner in to thinking they are about to receive a thrown ball. Now, IF the runner slows down or stops because of this "dekeing," isn't that "obstruction?" If so, the MLB umps aren't calling it.

different rule set

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Stevetheump

I've seen MLB infielders (esp at 2nd base on a hit and run), "deke" the runner in to thinking they are about to receive a thrown ball. Now, IF the runner slows down or stops because of this "dekeing," isn't that "obstruction?" If so, the MLB umps aren't calling it.

Couldn't care less what MLB umpires do. Different rules, different field, different priorities, different game.

And WTF does that have to do with a BR overrunning 1B?

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by Stevetheump

I've seen MLB infielders (esp at 2nd base on a hit and run), "deke" the runner in to thinking they are about to receive a thrown ball. Now, IF the runner slows down or stops because of this "dekeing," isn't that "obstruction?" If so, the MLB umps aren't calling it.

MLB umpires don't call this because it is legal under OBR.

[greymule]

Obviously, the word attempt as applied to the BR overrunning 1B would probably mean one thing to a person involved in softball and something different to a general observer.

In a lower-level SP game a few years ago, a batter lined a hit to right field and trotted rather casually toward 1B. F10 fielded the ball on one hop and, seeing that the BR was not yet at 1B and not running hard, made a lazy toss to F6 at 2B. The BR, seeing the throw lobbed in, made an unenergetic turn at 1B and, with his head down, took three steps toward 2B. F6 fired the ball to F3, who tagged the BR out as he was walking back to the bag.

Remember the level that I mentioned. The incredulous OC came out to inform me that "[the BR] has to make an attempt," to which I responded, "Three steps toward 2B is an attempt."

If one uninformed spectator had asked another, "Did he attempt to go to 2B?" the answer would have been "no" in the generic sense. But we all know that in softball (or baseball), he did make an attempt.

I've had girls' FP coaches claim what many of you have probably heard: "she never stepped into fair territory," "she was just trying to find the ball," "she was just trying to see if she had a chance to make it," etc., all with the claim of "not an attempt."

One of the guys I work with defines it, and explains it to coaches as, "an aggressive move," and that has worked for me, too.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by greymule

The incredulous OC came out to inform me that "[the BR] has to make an attempt," to which I responded, "Three steps toward 2B is an attempt."

With no overthrow to consider or entice a runner, the BR simply made a routine turn at 1B and was caught off base. I wouldn't even think in terms of an "attempt". I think it's more like lazy move runner.

[greymule]

"I think it's more like lazy move runner."

Yes, it really had nothing to do with overrunning the bag; it was just low-level ineptitude.

Actually, I saw Jim Bouton do the same thing in the majors. He reached on some kind of hit or error and loped around 1B and didn't even realize he was out when they tagged him. The ump realized it though. I guess Bouton didn't have a lot of experience with baserunning.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Look at it this way. If the ball gets by F6, that lazy runner will be more than happy to stroll into 2B. And if they throw that runner out would you return the runner to 1B because s/he wasn't "attempting" to advance?

[Stevetheump]

Originally Posted by greymule

Obviously, the word attempt as applied to the BR overrunning 1B would probably mean one thing to a person involved in softball and something different to a general observer.

In a lower-level SP game a few years ago, a batter lined a hit to right field and trotted rather casually toward 1B. F10 fielded the ball on one hop and, seeing that the BR was not yet at 1B and not running hard, made a lazy toss to F6 at 2B. The BR, seeing the throw lobbed in, made an unenergetic turn at 1B and, with his head down, took three steps toward 2B. F6 fired the ball to F3, who tagged the BR out as he was walking back to the bag.

Remember the level that I mentioned. The incredulous OC came out to inform me that "[the BR] has to make an attempt," to which I responded, "Three steps toward 2B is an attempt."

If one uninformed spectator had asked another, "Did he attempt to go to 2B?" the answer would have been "no" in the generic sense. But we all know that in softball (or baseball), he did make an attempt.

I've had girls' FP coaches claim what many of you have probably heard: "she never stepped into fair territory," "she was just trying to find the ball," "she was just trying to see if she had a chance to make it," etc., all with the claim of "not an attempt."

One of the guys I work with defines it, and explains it to coaches as, "an aggressive move," and that has worked for me, too.

grey - One thing you have to remember is the word "fan" is short for "fanatic." Fans (and some coaches) go bonkers because they do not understand the rules (most times, they don't READ the rules, let alone understand them). Also remember, no matter what we call, we are going to *iss off 50 percent of the people 100 percent of the time." So....just go out there and give it your best.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by Stevetheump

grey - One thing you have to remember is the word "fan" is short for "fanatic." Fans (and some coaches) go bonkers because they do not understand the rules (most times, they don't READ the rules, let alone understand them). Also remember, no matter what we call, we are going to *iss off 50 percent of the people 100 percent of the time." So....just go out there and give it your best.

Cute little pep talk there, Stevie. But based on Greymule's posting history, I dare say he has enough experience that he doesn't need that. I would hazard a guess that he shared his anecdote as a way of reinforcing for us lesser experienced officials on how to handle such cases. So. . .just go out there and give it your best.

[greymule]

"Fans (and some coaches) go bonkers because they do not understand the rules."

Yes, I'm accustomed to this. Listing all the rules I've been accused of not knowing would be the longest post on this website. But three recent cases in girls' ASA FP are typical: (1) When I upheld a dead ball appeal on a missed base, some "fans" were outraged—even though the miss was obvious—because I had upheld the appeal improperly: the "experts" knew that the defense had to return the ball to the pitcher, who then had to "call time" and throw to the base to appeal the baserunner's error; (2) I called a foul ball when F5 reached over the 3B line into foul territory to glove a chopper, but the fans could see clearly that "both [F5's] feet were obviously in fair territory"; and (3) A runner beat the throw to 1B but touched the white base. Play continued, and a run scored while the BR returned to 1B. After play ended, with the BR standing on 1B, the defensive coach appealed that the BR "touched the white base."

Maybe things are getting better, though. It's been years since I've been lectured by a knowledgeable fan that "the fielder has to hold the ball for three seconds. It's right in the rule book!"

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by greymule

But three recent cases in girls' ASA FP are typical: (1) When I upheld a dead ball appeal on a missed base, some "fans" were outraged—even though the miss was obvious—because I had upheld the appeal improperly: the "experts" knew that the defense had to return the ball to the pitcher, who then had to "call time" and throw to the base to appeal the baserunner's error; (2) I called a foul ball when F5 reached over the 3B line into foul territory to glove a chopper, but the fans could see clearly that "both [F5's] feet were obviously in fair territory"; and (3) A runner beat the throw to 1B but touched the white base. Play continued, and a run scored while the BR returned to 1B. After play ended, with the BR standing on 1B, the defensive coach appealed that the BR "touched the white base."

Maybe things are getting better, though. It's been years since I've been lectured by a knowledgeable fan that 4) "the fielder has to hold the ball for three seconds. It's right in the rule book!"

More proof that
1) They never get their heads out of LL
2) They watch too much football and baseball TV doesn't help
3) Most only learn half a rule

4)With today's schools, they can't count to three.

[Little Jimmy]

Way to represent Utrip fastpitch in our area Cecil.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Little Jimmy

Way to represent Utrip fastpitch in our area Cecil.

And notice I use USSSA and not the slang and often derogatory u-trip.
See you on the 2nd.