Batter HBP, makes no attempt

[illiniwek8]

0-2 is the count....no one on....pitcher throws a curveball which batter leans into, plate ump calls dead ball and tells the batter to stay right here/no award for HBP, what do you call the pitch? If you thought it was going to be a strike? Is it a ball?

Thanks for your insight.

[UmpJM]

illiniwek8,

Since, in the PU's judgement, the batter did not make a sufficient attempt to avoid the pitch, the batter is not awarded 1B.

Since the pitch hit the batter, the ball is dead.

If the pitch was out of the strike zone when it hit the batter, a ball is added to the count.

If the pitch was in the strike zone when it hit the batter, it is a strike, since strike three, the batter is out. The batter does NOT become a runner on a third strike not caught.

If the pitch hits the batter before reaching the plate (and, therefore, the strike zone), the umpire judges the pitch a ball or strike on his judgement of where the pitch would have been absent hitting the batter.

JM

[briancurtin]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

illiniwek8,

Since, in the PU's judgement, the batter did not make a sufficient attempt to avoid the pitch, the batter is not awarded 1B.

if this is NCAA we are talking, the batter gets first if he is within the vertical lines of the batters box. no attempt has to be made to get out of the way as long as the batter is in the box, see NCAA 8-2-d-2 approved ruling.

you dont necessarily have to make an attempt to get out of the way, but if we are talking FED then i dont know those rules specifically, but would assume you are right.

[UmpJM]

briancurtin,

If the batter were to be HBP while within the vertical plane boundaries of the batter's box and made no movement towards the pitch, you are correct that he would still be awarded 1B under NCAA rules.

However, in illiniwek's original sitch, the batter "...leans into ..." the pitch. In this case, I believe he would properly NOT be awarded 1B under NCAA rules.

Reference:

A.R.—If the batter intentionally gets touched by moving or rolling any part of the body into the pitch, the umpire shall call a strike or ball in accordance with Rules 7-4 and 7-5.

A.R.—If the batter freezes (makes no attempt to avoid the pitch) and is hit by a pitch that is clearly inside the vertical lines of the batter’s box, the ball is dead and the batter is awarded first base.

JM

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

"If the pitch hits the batter before reaching the plate (and, therefore, the strike zone), the umpire judges the pitch a ball or strike on his judgement of where the pitch would have been absent hitting the batter.

You call the pitch where it was when it was interfered with by the batter - NOT WHERE YOU IMAGINE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN!

In this situation, the batter tried to gain an advantage by purposely leaning into the pitch. One can assume that with 0-2 on a good batter, he was ready to protect the plate and in close. However, a good batter may also assume that with that same count he can slide up and away in order to get it before the big bend. We cannot tell where the batter was in this situation due to the way it was written. If he set up and away but leans in, he could very well still be within the confines of the box.

Coach JM is very knowledgable and typically on the mark. But, he is still a coach and his perception is sometimes skewed accordingly. Coaches want this call while on defense, but not when their stud is at bat.

[UmpJM]

WWTB,

My assertion that the umpire should call the pitch a ball or strike based on where it would have been absent the contact with the batter in the event the pitch hits the batter before reaching the strike zone is based on the following statement from J/R (Chapter 7 - One Base Awards, (1) The batter is hit-by-pitch (HBP) - my emphasis):

EG: A batter is crouched near the plate and rolls his shoulder into a curve ball, attempting to be hit by the pitch. The ball is dead, but he is not awarded first base. If the pitch was (or would have been) a strike, it is called as such.

So, if a pitcher throws a pitch "right down the middle" and the batter, who is standing forward in the box, reaches out his hand and is hit by the pitch just before it enters the heart of the strike zone, are you going to call the pitch a ball or a strike? It seems entirely consistent with the spirit and intent of the rules to call such a pitch a strike. What do you think?

JM

P.S. I can't find anything in the JEA, MLBUM, or BRD that addresses the situation.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

WWTB,

My assertion that the umpire should call the pitch a ball or strike based on where it would have been absent the contact with the batter in the event the pitch hits the batter before reaching the strike zone is based on the following statement from J/R (Chapter 7 - One Base Awards, (1) The batter is hit-by-pitch (HBP) - my emphasis):



So, if a pitcher throws a pitch "right down the middle" and the batter, who is standing forward in the box, reaches out his hand and is hit by the pitch just before it enters the heart of the strike zone, are you going to call the pitch a ball or a strike? It seems entirely consistent with the spirit and intent of the rules to call such a pitch a strike. What do you think?

JM

P.S. I can't find anything in the JEA, MLBUM, or BRD that addresses the situation.

Coach,


Three weeks ago, in Portland, Jim Evans agreed with your position. There are times a batter is hit by pitch prior to the ball reaching that plate, yet the pitch must still be determined a ball or a strike. Evan, in reply to a student who insisted such a pitch can't be called either since it didn't reach the plate, responded: "You can't have such a pitch remain uncalled. The umpire must use his judgment as to whether the pitch would have been a strike or a ball if it hadn't hit the batter. This is why you get the big bucks."

[briancurtin]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

briancurtin,
However, in illiniwek's original sitch, the batter "...leans into ..."

yeah, i missed that part. i should learn how to read one of these days.

[illiniwek8]

Thanks for the replies and insight. Was thinking that the batter initiated this lean in on the pitch and by calling it a ball......does he not gain an advantage/benefit? I guess my question is why should he benefit by getting a ball called and the pitcher be penalized for not getting a strike due to the batters actions. We'll never know if the pitch(curve) which could have broke on the inside corner would have been a strike because the batter intentionally leaned into it before it got to the strike zone(plate). Shouldn't the batter be penalized for initiating this action? I say, wherever it is, if the batter's actions are to "wear" the pitch, I say a strike be called for his actions,such as a strike being called for other actions the batter initiates, such as not entering the box in a timely manner.......I think calling it an automatic strike would stop these batters from "wearing" those pitches. In retrospect, I think we should have ruled strike 3 on that batter and let him take his bruised left shoulder to the bench and tell his teamates that he was dumb to intentionally try to "wear" that pitch.

[SAump]

The power of suggestion "to call strike" may result in an inapproprioate brainfart and interefere with the proper reasoning to award ONE base. That may influence the final outcome in a game. Wouldn't that feel uncomfortable (again)?

It would have to be one hell of a breaking pitch across the last foot or so (give or take 9 inches) and one very short batter (nonrunner). Purely based on judgement, it could go either way. Wouldn't it be better to ERR on the side of the taller batter most of the time?

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If it doesn't feel right, then don't let it interefere with HBP.
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[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by SAump

It would have to be one hell of a breaking pitch across the last foot or so (give or take 9 inches) and one very short batter (nonrunner).

Oh, I don't know. . . . .according to your version of physics, that sounds reasonable!!!

[LMan]

Originally Posted by illiniwek8

I guess my question is why should he benefit by getting a ball called and the pitcher be penalized for not getting a strike due to the batters actions..........Shouldn't the batter be penalized for initiating this action? .....I think calling it an automatic strike would stop these batters from "wearing" those pitches. In retrospect, I think we should have ruled strike 3 on that batter and let him take his bruised left shoulder to the bench and tell his teamates that he was dumb to intentionally try to "wear" that pitch.

I think you are veering into dangerous territory here. The moment you buy into the 'I need to keep everything 'fair' between the teams' and 'how can I call this to 'send a message' stuff, you are going to buy a major-league sh*tstorm of inconsistency, and be wearing coaches like a necklace, inning after inning.

IMO we are not there to "make things fair (our definition, of course)" , because that is a slippery slope that has no definite end and ultimately satisfies no one. You are dead once you have a coach call your assignor about a call, and it was a call unsupported by the rulebook but you made it "to be fair."

We are there to ensure the rules/casebook/AOs are followed by both teams, consistently, from the first pitch to the last. If the rules result in a temporary advantage to one side in a particular instance, so be it. No one will argue that the Rules of Baseball are perfect.

[big]

I've been doing LL since 1985 & FED & NBC since 2001. I have always ruled that if a batter leans into a pitch the batter DOES NOT automatically get 1st. In fact if a batter just stands there and makes no attempt to not get HBP I normally call dead ball & strike/ball and the batter stays. I'll tell the batter "If you don't make some attempt to get out of the way I'm not giving you 1st!" I have yet to get much flak out of my ruling on this. I can understand a ball coming right down the middle of the batter's box giving the batter 1st but if I judge that the batter could have possibly got out of the way and just stood there and took it for a free trip to 1st I won't tollerate that.

IMO one of the most dangerous things to do is to have batters intentionally get HBP just to get 1st and about the only way to stop this is not give them 1st.