What Am I Missing?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by robbie

My thought exactly.

If the referenced case plat truely is ASA's ruling - they sure have a hole in the rules and a case play that directly contradicts the rules as written.

No, I just made that up and blamed it on ASA

Can you be more specific as to your concern?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

No, I certainly know that an IP does not have to be thrown. The OP and other cases have the pitch being released. My comment was just about those IP which are IDB, rather than DDB. Whether it is thrown or not, is it a pitch and therefore an IP, if it is declared a "no pitch"?

An IP is a violation of a rule, not necessarily the act of "pitching" the ball. Since there does not need to be a pitch for a violation to be effected, how would a declaration of "no pitch" negate something that does not require it to be a pitch to begin.

Steve was right, we did discuss this before and beat it to death. I haven't checked, but it is quite possible the ASA Rule Clarification came directly from the discussion on this board. That has occurred a few times over the past three years.

"The fact that the batter did not swing in (a) or got a hit in (b) is irrelevant because the ball became dead when R1 left 1B early."


Comments for all codes accepted.

ASA has answered

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

...Can you be more specific as to your concern?

I think he is concerned about this kind of thing: R1 on 1B. DC intentionally calling for an IP of the type designed to fake the runner into leaving early (such as a double windmill). Cost: ball on the batter; benefit: R1 out. Maximum downside if R1 doesn't bite: R1 on 2B.

[RKBUmp]

Wouldnt this type of play fall unders USC? Would be similar to a coach trying to have his pitcher use the 20 second time out to purposely walk a batter rather than legally deliver the pitches as required under the rules. The coach is attempting to use 1 rule to circumvent another to their advantage.

If the pitcher has been legal the entire game, but is suddenly illegal with a double windmill with a runner on base, he may get the first call, but should also come with a warning that if it happens again hes getting the USC call.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Bob Newhart: Hello? Oh, hello, is this the Third World?
Phone Voice: Why, yes sir, it is. However, some day we are going to be #2, We Try Harder!
Bob Newhart: Really? You guys have rental car companies?
Phone Voice: Of course, we do, we are the Third World, not the Lost World. Why do you ask?
Bob Newhart: Nevermind, that isn't why I called.
Phone Voice: Then why did you call?
Bob Newhart: Well, I was just wondering around this web site of the goofy folks who think the know how to umpire softball games. You know, sometimes I wonder where they ever came up with some of the moves they make flailing their arms all over t....
Phone Voice: Sir...SIR!!!...the reason you called?
Bob Newhart: Oh, sorry. Well, I came across this simple little play and there were real simple answer and then one of your guys snuck in there somehow and I just hate seeing people beat the hell out of some Third World Play.

[wadeintothem]

It would take some abuse like that to get a more sensible ruling.

The ball is dead at the time of the IP, albeit delayed. The penalty, as with all other things, should begin enforcement as if at the time of the infraction

The ASA clarification, which was discussed a few years ago, makes 0 sense.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

It would take some abuse like that to get a more sensible ruling.

The ball is dead at the time of the IP, albeit delayed. The penalty, as with all other things, should begin enforcement as if at the time of the infraction

Sorry, but this comment is incorrect.

The ASA clarification, which was discussed a few years ago, makes 0 sense.

Now we know that your recent absence was spent camping near Crystal Cave during the burn off of the nearby marijuana fields.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Wouldnt this type of play fall unders USC? Would be similar to a coach trying to have his pitcher use the 20 second time out to purposely walk a batter rather than legally deliver the pitches as required under the rules. The coach is attempting to use 1 rule to circumvent another to their advantage.

If the pitcher has been legal the entire game, but is suddenly illegal with a double windmill with a runner on base, he may get the first call, but should also come with a warning that if it happens again hes getting the USC call.

What does the rule say? Is the runner required to keep contact with the base until the ball is release or until when the runner believes the ball is supposed to be released?

So I understand, will someone please describe what you are calling a "double windmill"?

[RKBUmp]

2 rotations of the arm, ball released on 2nd rotation.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

2 rotations of the arm, ball released on 2nd rotation.

I think that sounds a lot simpler than actually doing it

Actually, quite often that is not an illegal pitch.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Actually, quite often that is not an illegal pitch.

In NFHS it is!

[RKBUmp]

In ASA it is. 6-3-D

[Dakota]

I think the ASA ruling has the potential for abuse by a clever coach/pitcher (e.g. going around on the windmill, but just not releasing the ball... runner leaves before the ball is released, called out, and a ball on the batter... same result as a pitch-out, caught stealing, but easier).

But, given the distinct lack of such shenanigans, either all the coaches / pitchers have not caught on, or it doesn't work as well in reality as it seems like it might on paper.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

In ASA it is. 6-3-D

I didn't say they were all legal.

Yes, two "complete" rotations. Often, what is perceived as a second revolution does not necessarily meet the standards for an IP to be called.

Ever see a pitcher make a small, abbreviated rotation to the side and then fully extend for the delivery swing forward? How often is it called illegal?

If the pitcher separates and begins her motion in front of her body, she can make what seems to be full revolutions. But since the ball is often released immediately after coming past the body, it is still less than two which makes it one. Even though it may look like two full revolutions, it is still legal.

Even Somalian pirates couldn't hijack something this easily

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I think the ASA ruling has the potential for abuse by a clever coach/pitcher (e.g. going around on the windmill, but just not releasing the ball... runner leaves before the ball is released, called out, and a ball on the batter... same result as a pitch-out, caught stealing, but easier).

But, given the distinct lack of such shenanigans, either all the coaches / pitchers have not caught on, or it doesn't work as well in reality as it seems like it might on paper.

To have the opposite ruling would allow even more significant abuses. There are many ways to violate the pitching rule that wouldn't mislead the baserunner; I can't imagine that anyone would consider that means baserunners can leave early without any penalty.

Example: R1 on first, F1 starts her pitching motion with back foot off the pitching plate. R1 leaves base immediately on first motion, and is almost to 2nd base when F1 releases the ball. B2 grounds to F5, F5's throw to F3 pulls F3 off the base. R1 easily reaches 3rd base without a throw.

In this play, the IP is not a dead ball, never becomes a dead ball, and R1 gained an illegal advantage that certainly wouldn't be intended by the rulesmakers. As long as the IP can be ignored as a result of the offense doing better, it can't and shouldn't be used to ignore violations by the offense. R1 does not get to leave the base early because the pitcher violated.

In the singular case of F1 pitching illegally solely to draw a runner off base, the umpires need to use judgment and game management skills to not allow the pitcher to gain an illegal advantage. If we kill a play to keep a batter or coach from creating an illegal pitch (and we do!!) and warn or penalize that action, you need to equally kill the play where the pitcher creates the runner leaving the base early by an illegal motion. Kill that one immediately and award the IP penalty; since you killed the IP, the runner didn't leave early, it never happened in live play (same rationale as the batter can't hit the ball when you killed the play because the runner left early).

Even if they complain/protest that the IP is a DDB, the fact is you killed the play, and can't unring that bell, now can you?