What Am I Missing?

[robbie]

Originally Posted by Snocatzdad

What if the illegal pitch ruling precedes the left early in the following manner

Pitcher does two windmills (runner leaves on what they thought was release on first windmill ASA 6.3.D) In that case the illegal pitch causes them to leave early and I believe it would be correct to allow the offense to choose the results of the play.

I guess the crux is that it's likely for the pitch to be illegal before release so it's possible that the infraction on the pitch is prior to the infraction on the base.

I would think minimally you would allow the offense to choose the result of the play or a ball and runners advance. With that result being that you called the runner on base out for leaving early and they probably wouldn't want to keep that result and would take the ball and advancement.

Your 4th paragraph answered your question (statement) in paragraph 2.

Result of play is dead ball, runner out for leaving early. Your choice coach..................

[Snocatzdad]

Your right, I misread the initial post. I though he was saying as soon as he saw movement on the runner "No pitch" and called runner out despite illegal pitch.

[Steve M]

Didn't we talk about this a couple of years ago?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Snocatzdad

Your right, I misread the initial post. I though he was saying as soon as he saw movement on the runner "No pitch" and called runner out despite illegal pitch.

So did I. Consequently, when I said you weren't missing anything I was wrong. The runner is out despite the illegal pitch. See the linked case play (which is why we discussed this last year).
________
HotBellaXXX

[Snocatzdad]

Originally Posted by youngump

So did I. Consequently, when I said you weren't missing anything I was wrong. The runner is out despite the illegal pitch. See the linked case play (which is why we discussed this last year).

What would stop a Defensive Coach from instructing his pitcher to throw a double windmill once a game with a runner on 1B know that the runner will likely leave early on the first expected release point and the only penalty is a ball on the batter and likely chance to get runner called out for leaving early.

[robbie]

Originally Posted by Snocatzdad

What would stop a Defensive Coach from instructing his pitcher to throw a double windmill once a game with a runner on 1B know that the runner will likely leave early on the first expected release point and the only penalty is a ball on the batter and likely chance to get runner called out for leaving early.

My thought exactly.

If the referenced case plat truely is ASA's ruling - they sure have a hole in the rules and a case play that directly contradicts the rules as written.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by robbie

My thought exactly.

If the referenced case plat truely is ASA's ruling - they sure have a hole in the rules and a case play that directly contradicts the rules as written.

No, I just made that up and blamed it on ASA

Can you be more specific as to your concern?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

...Can you be more specific as to your concern?

I think he is concerned about this kind of thing: R1 on 1B. DC intentionally calling for an IP of the type designed to fake the runner into leaving early (such as a double windmill). Cost: ball on the batter; benefit: R1 out. Maximum downside if R1 doesn't bite: R1 on 2B.

[wadeintothem]

It would take some abuse like that to get a more sensible ruling.

The ball is dead at the time of the IP, albeit delayed. The penalty, as with all other things, should begin enforcement as if at the time of the infraction

The ASA clarification, which was discussed a few years ago, makes 0 sense.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

It would take some abuse like that to get a more sensible ruling.

The ball is dead at the time of the IP, albeit delayed. The penalty, as with all other things, should begin enforcement as if at the time of the infraction

Sorry, but this comment is incorrect.

The ASA clarification, which was discussed a few years ago, makes 0 sense.

Now we know that your recent absence was spent camping near Crystal Cave during the burn off of the nearby marijuana fields.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by robbie

Your 4th paragraph answered your question (statement) in paragraph 2.

Result of play is dead ball, runner out for leaving early. Your choice coach..................

Speaking ASA, according to the interpretation linked to above by youngump, the coach's choice option does not nullify the runner being out for leaving early. That out stands, regardless. And, since the leaving early resulted in a dead ball, there are no other aspects of the play to be considered. If there are other runners, they receive the base award, and the batter is awarded a ball. The runner who left early is out.

Also, argodad, what you were missing was the credibility of Referee on softball rulings is worse than your average coach.

Did Referee specify a specific rule book?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Also, argodad, what you were missing was the credibility of Referee on softball rulings is worse than your average coach.

Is it Referee or .......?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota;Did [I

Referee [/I]specify a specific rule book?

Given the writer, probably OBR.

The subtlety some are missing is the timing of when the ball becomes dead. An IP is normally a delayed dead, so the "leave early" applies as the ball is still live until that infraction, even if the IP is committed first.
The other side is an IP that is IDB, like the 20 second limit. If that occurs, it could be before the "leave early".

OK, my question is whether a "no pitch" can be treated as an IP if the pitch didn't occur? IOW, which takes precedence?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

OK, my question is whether a "no pitch" can be treated as an IP if the pitch didn't occur? IOW, which takes precedence?

Speaking ASA.

The pitching violation occurred prior to the running violation.

When in IP is called, it is DDB. The runner left early prior to the release of a live ball.

I believe your question fails to recognize is that an IP does not require a pitch to be thrown, therefore the subsequent "no pitch" status of the ball is irrelevant.

IOW, enforce both. Below is from the March 2008 Rules Clarification on the ASA Umpire web page:

PLAY: R1 on 1B and no count on B2. F1 commits an illegal pitch, by bringing the hands together a second time, which is called by the plate umpire, but continues the pitch. Just before releasing the ball R1 leaves the base before the release of the pitch. In (a) B1 does not swing at the pitch. In (b) B1 swings at the pitch and gets a base hit. In (c) R1 is on 1B and R2 is on 3B at the start of the play.

RULING: The illegal pitch happened when the pitcher brought their hands together, paused, the hands separated to begin the pitch, then the hands came back together prior to the release of the pitch. In (a) and (b) the ball became dead when R1 left 1B before the pitch was released. The fact that the batter did not swing in (a) or got a hit in (b) is irrelevant because the ball became dead when R1 left 1B early.

Enforce both the leaving early and illegal pitch infractions, The Ball is dead and R1 is out and a ball is awarded to B2. In (c) The plate umpire should call illegal pitch when it occurs and then “dead ball” when R1 leaves 1B too soon. R1 is out, R2 is awarded home and B2 is awarded a ball in the count.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Speaking ASA.

The pitching violation occurred prior to the running violation.

When in IP is called, it is DDB. The runner left early prior to the release of a live ball.

I believe your question fails to recognize is that an IP does not require a pitch to be thrown, therefore the subsequent "no pitch" status of the ball is irrelevant.

IOW, enforce both. .

No, I certainly know that an IP does not have to be thrown. The OP and other cases have the pitch being released. My comment was just about those IP which are IDB, rather than DDB. Whether it is thrown or not, is it a pitch and therefore an IP, if it is declared a "no pitch"?

"The fact that the batter did not swing in (a) or got a hit in (b) is irrelevant because the ball became dead when R1 left 1B early."


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