U Trip Slow Pitch help

[referee99]

Hello all,

I only do a smattering of USSSA games (predominantly ASA), so always wary of differences.

The play: I'm PU. R1 on 1B. No outs. Batter hits line drive down LF line, F7 catches the ball in foul territory and his momentum carries him out of play. I call Dead Ball. R1 had played it "halfway".

Partner sends runner to 2B. My rusty ol' cranium is telling me that in UTrip we're not advancing him. I know that on a throw that goes out of play that its two from the release, and that runners off base get their orig base plus one, so logically in my play the base they get is to return to 1B.

Am I correct in my thinking?

Originally Posted by referee99

Hello all,

I only do a smattering of USSSA games (predominantly ASA), so always wary of differences.

The play: I'm PU. R1 on 1B. No outs. Batter hits line drive down LF line, F7 catches the ball in foul territory and his momentum carries him out of play. I call Dead Ball. R1 had played it "halfway".

Partner sends runner to 2B. My rusty ol' cranium is telling me that in UTrip we're not advancing him. I know that on a throw that goes out of play that its two from the release, and that runners off base get their orig base plus one, so logically in my play the base they get is to return to 1B.

Am I correct in my thinking?

Need one more bit of information. Was this caught line drive in foul territory after the courtesy foul had been used or not? Makes a big difference in Utrip.

[Skahtboi]

From page 46 of the current USSSA Slo-Pitch Rule book:

1. When a batted ball, either Fair or Foul, is legally caught on the fly
while the Fielder’s feet are still within the established lines of the playing
area, the Batter is out even though the Fielder’s momentum may cause him
to fall over the fence, into a dugout; or patron areas, or cross a line, or
marking the out of play area, provided in the Umpire’s judgment the catch
was completed. The ball is declared dead and each and every Runner is
advanced one base after the catch. If ball is carried intentionally into a dead
ball area, two bases are awarded to each Base Runner.

From this citation it sounds as if your partner was correct.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

Need one more bit of information. Was this caught line drive in foul territory after the courtesy foul had been used or not? Makes a big difference in Utrip.

Why? A caught fly is not a foul ball, just a caught fly for an out.
Unless of course, USSSA SLOWPITCH is that different.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Why? A caught fly is not a foul ball, just a caught fly for an out.
Unless of course, USSSA SLOWPITCH is that different.

In some SP assns (don't know if U-Trip is one), the rules are that a 3rd strike foul for an out is basically a strike out and dead ball. IOW, catching it means nothing including runners not advancing on what would be a caught fly ball in ASA.

Therefore, catching the ball and going out of play becomes irrelevant.

[referee99]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

From page 46 of the current USSSA Slo-Pitch Rule book:



From this citation it sounds as if your partner was correct.

... my question is, in USSSA that one base is back to the base that he would have needed to touch. Right?

I know that:
R1 at 1B, batter hits line drive to F1 who snags it, throws quickly to F3 to double runner off 1B. F1 throws ball over F3 and out of play. R1 had not retouched 1B when the throw was released. Runner is awarded 2 bases, but one of them is the retouch of 1B and they end up at 2B.

So in OP, runner just back to base that they needed to touch?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

In some SP assns (don't know if U-Trip is one), the rules are that a 3rd strike foul for an out is basically a strike out and dead ball. IOW, catching it means nothing including runners not advancing on what would be a caught fly ball in ASA.

Therefore, catching the ball and going out of play becomes irrelevant.

Correct. NSA is one such org. USSSA says:

USSSA 9-2-F: The ball is live and in play: When a fly ball is legally caught (unless it is the second Foul caught after one strike.)

Remember, U-Trip starts with a 1-1 count, so they're referring to one strike AFTER being given the 1-1 count.

[referee99]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

In some SP assns (don't know if U-Trip is one), the rules are that a 3rd strike foul for an out is basically a strike out and dead ball. IOW, catching it means nothing including runners not advancing on what would be a caught fly ball in ASA.

Therefore, catching the ball and going out of play becomes irrelevant.

he still had strikes remaining.

[CecilOne]

Just that much more thankful for fastpitch!

[7in60]

Originally Posted by referee99

I know that:
R1 at 1B, batter hits line drive to F1 who snags it, throws quickly to F3 to double runner off 1B. F1 throws ball over F3 and out of play. R1 had not retouched 1B when the throw was released. Runner is awarded 2 bases, but one of them is the retouch of 1B and they end up at 2B.

Really? By Softball Ontario rules R1 has already attained 1st, so a 2-base award would put him/her at 3rd. The direction he\she is moving in is irrelevant. However, he/she must retouch first or the defense can appeal a missed base.

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Why? A caught fly is not a foul ball, just a caught fly for an out.
Unless of course, USSSA SLOWPITCH is that different.

Because in Utrip, the ball is dead on a caught foul ball after the courtesy has been used. You know how players yell "foul ball, let it go!"? In Utrip, a worthless statement basically.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

In some SP assns (don't know if U-Trip is one), the rules are that a 3rd strike foul for an out is basically a strike out and dead ball. IOW, catching it means nothing including runners not advancing on what would be a caught fly ball in ASA.

Therefore, catching the ball and going out of play becomes irrelevant.

Ooops, didn't see this one before posting my previous one.

Originally Posted by referee99

... my question is, in USSSA that one base is back to the base that he would have needed to touch. Right?

I know that:
R1 at 1B, batter hits line drive to F1 who snags it, throws quickly to F3 to double runner off 1B. F1 throws ball over F3 and out of play. R1 had not retouched 1B when the throw was released. Runner is awarded 2 bases, but one of them is the retouch of 1B and they end up at 2B.
So in OP, runner just back to base that they needed to touch?

In the OP, your answer would be no, because it doesn't matter what their movement was. Runner would be awarded 2B. Of course, he would still need to tag up, otherwise could be out on appeal.

In the posting above (highlighted in blue), the award should be 3B. A retouch of the base is not considered one of the awarded bases. It's where the runner was at the time of the hit. I've had this highlighted situation so many times I practically have it memorized and I've had so many players b***h a storm over it in league play. Again, the runner would still need to tag up, or be called out on appeal.

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Correct. NSA is one such org. USSSA says:



Remember, U-Trip starts with a 1-1 count, so they're referring to one strike AFTER being given the 1-1 count.

Highlighted in red is NOT true. That's the "general" assumption everyone makes. No where in the USSSA book does it say a player starts with a 1-1 count. I got reamed by an UIC in championship play in my 2nd or 3rd year for doing this. They start with a 0-0 count, but only get 2 strikes as opposed to 3, 3 balls as opposed to 4.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

In the posting above (highlighted in blue), the award should be 3B. A retouch of the base is not considered one of the awarded bases. It's where the runner was at the time of the hit.

I don't work any USSSA slow pitch (or, really much slow pitch of any variety, for that matter). But this and other U-Trip questions come up often enough on various discussion boards that I've downloaded their rule book for future reference.

My understanding was that USSSA is the "exception to the rule" from the rest of the softball world when it comes to awarding bases on this play (ball thrown out-of-play before runner has re-touched following a caught batted ball).

What is the intent behind the final sentence of the "EFFECT" following their rule 8-7-F?

8-7: Baserunners are entitled to advance without liability to be put out...(F) When a ball is live after a batted ball and is overthrown into foul territory and is blocked.

EFFECT Sec. 7. F. In all cases, when a blocked ball occurs on an overthrown live ball, the ball is immediately dead. Each and every Base Runner is awarded two bases from last base occupied, unless required to retouch.

(For the guys here that "speak ASA", the USSSA definition of a "blocked ball" is the same as the ASA definition of an "overthrow". Their definition of a throw that goes into dead ball area is that it's a "blocked ball".)

And then there is this:

8-9: Baserunners may, and shall, return to bases at various times...(D) A Base Runner returning to a base to retag a base on a fly ball caught and thrown by a Fielder to any base. If the ball is thrown by a Fielder into the restricted area, the Base Runner shall be awarded the base he must retouch, plus one base. Since the Base Runner is required to regain the base he first occupied, he is awarded that base and only one more.

Sounds to me like the runner in question is only getting second base, not third!