Tagup Responsibilities

[chymechowder]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Simple.

Plate Umpire always has a runner that's on 3B.

Base Umpire always has a runner that's on 1B.

If there are multiple runners, the plate umpire always has the lead runner, and the base umpire always has all other runners.

Make sense?

I'm in USSSA. Mens slow pitch. 2 man crew. With any runners on base, BU is positioned just inside of 2B before the pitch. So if there's only a runner on first, how is the BU supposed to watch a (routine) fly to left for catch/no catch AND watch the runner at first tagging?

We have BU taking the tag for any runner at 2B (even if there are multiple runners), and PU will have all other tags.

I"m not saying that's necessarily the correct mechanic--just that that's what we do. But it makes sense to me. With a runner on 2B (even if he's the lead runner), the BU can always position himself (inside the bag) so that he's aligned with the bag and the outfielder.

[outathm]

That may be true for USSSA. The question was for ASA.

[chymechowder]

Originally Posted by outathm

That may be true for USSSA. The question was for ASA.

gotcha. out of curiosity, then: in ASA with a man on first and a fly ball to left, the base umpire is supposed to have the catch and the tag?

that seems extremely odd to me. why wouldn't home plate take the tag here? I mean, there's only two things happening--why have one guy do both?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by chymechowder

gotcha. out of curiosity, then: in ASA with a man on first and a fly ball to left, the base umpire is supposed to have the catch and the tag?

that seems extremely odd to me. why wouldn't home plate take the tag here? I mean, there's only two things happening--why have one guy do both?

In your situation, in ASA, the BU can not have both calls. Either the BU goes out to call the catch and the PU has the tag-up, or the PU has the catch and the BU has the tag-up. Once the BU goes out to call the catch, he's done for the rest of the play - once you go out, you stay out.

There are always going to be problems inherent to the 2-umpire system when it comes to tag-up coverage. If tourneys or leagues don't want to pay for a 3-umpire crew (and who could blame them, since it increases the cost by 50%), then they just have to accept that we will do the best we can.

I think ASA keeps it pretty simple with the tag-up responsibilities in a 2-umpire system, demonstrated by the fact that it took only a few sentences to describe who has which runner. If we start getting into left field versus right field versus center field, that would add a layer of complexity that no organization with 40,000+ umpires is ready to deal with.

Personally, I've not had that big a problem with it in 17 years.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by chymechowder

gotcha. out of curiosity, then: in ASA with a man on first and a fly ball to left, the base umpire is supposed to have the catch and the tag?

that seems extremely odd to me. why wouldn't home plate take the tag here? I mean, there's only two things happening--why have one guy do both?

What sounds odd to me is why the base umpire would call the routine catch?? Calling catch/no catch is reserved for "going out", which certainly isn't appropriate for a "routine" fly ball.

Let the PU make the routine call, and the BU has the runner; every part of the runner, the tag, the advance to 2nd (if it happens), the return play back to 1st (if it happens). If BU concentrates on the catch (versus first touch), then he will lose the release point by the runner.

If the ball drops, PU picks up the lead runner into 3rd, BU still has 1st and 2nd, like always.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

What sounds odd to me is why the base umpire would call the routine catch?? Calling catch/no catch is reserved for "going out", which certainly isn't appropriate for a "routine" fly ball.

Let the PU make the routine call, and the BU has the runner; every part of the runner, the tag, the advance to 2nd (if it happens), the return play back to 1st (if it happens). If BU concentrates on the catch (versus first touch), then he will lose the release point by the runner.

If the ball drops, PU picks up the lead runner into 3rd, BU still has 1st and 2nd, like always.

Not to mention the fact that if the PU does his f'ing job (how sad that there's a converse to that statement), he should be at least halfway up the line (or more) to 3B anyway to get a good view of both the runner and the catch. The PU has no better view to a runner on 1B than the BU.

[chymechowder]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Not to mention the fact that if the PU does his f'ing job (how sad that there's a converse to that statement), he should be at least halfway up the line (or more) to 3B anyway to get a good view of both the runner and the catch. The PU has no better view to a runner on 1B than the BU.

Really? The BU is in between the first touch and the runner on 1B. That is to say, the runner is behind him. However quick he is to turn his head and eyes after first touch, he's still going to have to turn them.

The PU is behind both the runner and the defensive first touch. Everything's in front of him. The amount of head/eye turning he has to do is definitely less than that required of the BU.

Right?

[ScottieRasberry]

I had a situation where I would've loved to know the rule right off the top of my head last night. My base ump (the senior ump) told me that I had the catch and all tag ups. But when I was the plate ump, and lead runner at 2nd didn't tag up, and I was button hooking in on an outfield fly, and the pitcher appealed it, the plate ump pointed at ME, like it was MY call! Does anyone know any rules I can reference for this situation?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by ScottieRasberry

I had a situation where I would've loved to know the rule right off the top of my head last night. My base ump (the senior ump) told me that I had the catch and all tag ups. But when I was the plate ump, and lead runner at 2nd didn't tag up, and I was button hooking in on an outfield fly, and the pitcher appealed it, the plate ump pointed at ME, like it was MY call! Does anyone know any rules I can reference for this situation?

I'm going to assume that you're asking about ASA's mechanics (as opposed to something else like USSSA or NSA).

The mechanics I mentioned in this thread should apply to your situation. Study them, learn them. Fortunately, they're pretty easy. They're also on page 253 of your rule book.

In your specific situation, you had a runner at 2B (R1), and I'm assuming you had a runner (R2) on 1B (by the fact that you mention that R1 was a "lead runner"). The plate umpire should have R1, and the base umpire should have R2.

Now, I'm a little confused by the fact that in your post, you mention that you're the plate umpire, and that your partner was the plate umpire. Which is it?

Let's say you were the plate umpire and your partner was on the bases. If that's the case, then yes, the runner on 2B was yours. If you were on the bases and your partner was the plate umpire, then he should normally not have signaled to you UNLESS he didn't see it. He probably either got blocked or he screwed up somewhere. If he points to you on a call that was his, he's giving it up to you. If you didn't see it, call safe, don't call an out that you didn't see.

Just my two cents.

[ScottieRasberry]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Now, I'm a little confused by the fact that in your post, you mention that you're the plate umpire, and that your partner was the plate umpire. Which is it?

We switch up every game. So the first game, I was the plate ump, trying to call all of the tag ups. The second game, I was the base ump, thinking he would do the same, as he was the plate ump for the second game.

Thanks for the page reference!

[chymechowder]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

What sounds odd to me is why the base umpire would call the routine catch?? Calling catch/no catch is reserved for "going out", which certainly isn't appropriate for a "routine" fly ball.

Let the PU make the routine call, and the BU has the runner; every part of the runner, the tag, the advance to 2nd (if it happens), the return play back to 1st (if it happens). If BU concentrates on the catch (versus first touch), then he will lose the release point by the runner.

If the ball drops, PU picks up the lead runner into 3rd, BU still has 1st and 2nd, like always.

OK, that's an interesting point. In my scenario, I've got the BU making the catch/no catch call even if he's not going out. So your response at least answers my question about why one guy would do both.

Buuut, I guess I still have another question, and I suppose it's one of general mechanics. With a runner on first, I assume the ASA BU's pre-pitch position is around 2nd base? If so, he's never going to be able to have both the touch and the tag in front of him. Maybe if it's down the RF line. But anything to center or left is going to require him to see first touch then whip his head around to see when the runner releases. There's going to be a gap. Unless he's only LISTENING for first touch, which I dont imagine he's doing.

So I guess I come back to: with (just) a man on first, isn't the home plate umpire in a better position to rule on first touch vs. runner leaving?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by chymechowder

OK, that's an interesting point. In my scenario, I've got the BU making the catch/no catch call even if he's not going out. So your response at least answers my question about why one guy would do both.

Buuut, I guess I still have another question, and I suppose it's one of general mechanics. With a runner on first, I assume the ASA BU's pre-pitch position is around 2nd base? If so, he's never going to be able to have both the touch and the tag in front of him. Maybe if it's down the RF line. But anything to center or left is going to require him to see first touch then whip his head around to see when the runner releases. There's going to be a gap. Unless he's only LISTENING for first touch, which I dont imagine he's doing.

So I guess I come back to: with (just) a man on first, isn't the home plate umpire in a better position to rule on first touch vs. runner leaving?

With a runner on 1st (or no runners on), the pre-pitch position is behind the 2nd baseman, and shaded toward the first base side. If the F4 plays extremely deep, then "behind" becomes behind a line drawn between the F4 and F3, again shaded toward first base. Only if F4 is deep AND shifted way around on a big lefty does the BU get anywhere near 2nd base.

After buttonhooking into the infield as the ball is hit into left field, the BU has almost the exact same view and angle, if not better, as the PU who is hustling down the third base line to see the catch. So, as NCASAUMP said, if PU is doing his job, and BU is properly doing his job, then it makes no sense for PU to call the tag occuring about 90' away behind his right ear, when the BU can see it from 20' away in his peripheral vision.

[chymechowder]

Ah, ok. I definitely assumed some positioning similarities between ASA and USSSA that clearly don't exist! (At least not in the U-trip league I was schooled in.)

Our BU's, with any runners on any base, are always just inside 2B, cheating a step or towards 1B.

BU's don't go out on balls, even ones that are going to be questionable on the catch--which I think is definitely weird. They're always inside the basepaths. And the BU's have just about every out call in the outfield, routine or otherwise. One exception: nobody on base, someone hits a high fly down the RF line. BU will run from his starting position (behind 1B) to get in position to rule on a potential play at 2B, and the PU will have the catch/no catch in right.

Thanks for the replies--even though there was some unwitting "apples and oranges" going on there!