Interesting situtation...opinions please.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Bases loaded with one out. Batter hits a long fly ball to left field. The batted ball deflects off of the left fielders glove and goes over the fence in fair territory. Runner on 1st base is holding to tag up. Batter/runner passes the runner at 1st base. What do you rule? Does it matter if the b/r passes the runner at 1st base before the ball becomes dead? Also, what would the result be if there were two outs? Your thoughts and opinions would be appreciated.

[gumpire]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

Bases loaded with one out. Batter hits a long fly ball to left field. The batted ball deflects off of the left fielders glove and goes over the fence in fair territory. Runner on 1st base is holding to tag up. Batter/runner passes the runner at 1st base. What do you rule?

BR out...all other runners awarded home base.
per 8.7.d and 5.8.6(a)

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

Does it matter if the b/r passes the runner at 1st base before the ball becomes dead?

Is a 4-base award a dead ball? Can't seem to find a reference to that.

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

Also, what would the result be if there were two outs?

BR is out number 3...half inning over.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by gumpire

Is a 4-base award a dead ball? Can't seem to find a reference to that.

Ball into dead ball territory

Originally Posted by gumpire

BR is out number 3...half inning over.

BR reached 1st if passing the runner at 1st.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by gumpire

Is a 4-base award a dead ball? Can't seem to find a reference to that.

Think about this comment for a second.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

Bases loaded with one out. Batter hits a long fly ball to left field. The batted ball deflects off of the left fielders glove and goes over the fence in fair territory. Runner on 1st base is holding to tag up. Batter/runner passes the runner at 1st base. What do you rule? Does it matter if the b/r passes the runner at 1st base before the ball becomes dead? Also, what would the result be if there were two outs? Your thoughts and opinions would be appreciated.

Assuming Men's SP

ASA 5.5.A.Exception

[gumpire]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Think about this comment for a second.

Found the reference 8.2.d EXCEPTION........thanks for making me go back and check IRISH.

[gumpire]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Ball into dead ball territory


BR reached 1st if passing the runner at 1st.

Don't see where it matters if BR reached 1st in the ruling....he/she passed the preceeding runner and is OUT.

The 4 base award does not exist until the umpire awards it. So normal base running responsibilities apply.

Unless the BR is extremely fast, I have hard time seeing him/her reaching 1st while R3 is still deciding if ball is caught/touched. And IF BR had that much speed, no reason he/she couldn't hold up short of 1B.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by gumpire

Don't see where it matters if BR reached 1st in the ruling....he/she passed the preceeding runner and is OUT.

The 4 base award does not exist until the umpire awards it. So normal base running responsibilities apply.

Unless the BR is extremely fast, I have hard time seeing him/her reaching 1st while R3 is still deciding if ball is caught/touched. And IF BR had that much speed, no reason he/she couldn't hold up short of 1B.

Think about it for a minute.

If they are not required to run the bases, how can you have a baserunner?

If the batter stepped over 1B and then the ball was declared a home run or a 4-base award, are you going to allow an appeal for the missed base when the player wasn't required to touch it?

By rule, it is either a HR or a four-base award for any fair batted ball which leaves the field in fair territory that does not touch the ground or front of the fence. It is not like the umpire has a choice. Also, by rule, the batter and each runner will be credited with a run. There are no exceptions noted where that would not occur.

[gumpire]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Think about it for a minute.

If they are not required to run the bases, how can you have a baserunner?

If the batter stepped over 1B and then the ball was declared a home run or a 4-base award, are you going to allow an appeal for the missed base when the player wasn't required to touch it?

If the runner took off for 3B instead of 1B, is that ok because the ball EVENTUALLY went over the fence?

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

By rule, it is either a HR or a four-base award for any fair batted ball which leaves the field in fair territory that does not touch the ground or front of the fence. It is not like the umpire has a choice. Also, by rule, the batter and each runner will be credited with a run. There are no exceptions noted where that would not occur.

By rule, passing a preceeing runner prior to them scoring or being put out is OUT, no exceptions noted.

I don't think there's a rule anywhere that allows us umpires to "predict" what is going to happen.

[gumpire]

It is pretty clear that the intent of the runners not having to run on a home run/4 base award is to speed up the game.
It is not the intent that the rules or responsibilities of baserunning go away or don't apply.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by gumpire

It is pretty clear that the intent of the runners not having to run on a home run/4 base award is to speed up the game.
It is not the intent that the rules or responsibilities of baserunning go away or don't apply.

So if the ball is over foul territory when the BR passes the runner at 1B it doesn't count because the ball was live and foul at the time and if the BR passes the runner while the ball is over fair territory he is out even if it goes foul because the eventual result of the play is irrelevant and does not make the responsibilities of baserunning go away.

[gumpire]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

So if the ball is over foul territory when the BR passes the runner at 1B it doesn't count because the ball was live and foul at the time and if the BR passes the runner while the ball is over fair territory he is out even if it goes foul because the eventual result of the play is irrelevant and does not make the responsibilities of baserunning go away.

Again, you can't predict this action....rule fair or foul and then take appropriate actions.

Remember, a foul ball is a strike on a "batter" and does not turn him/her into a BR. Since he/she's not a "runner", he/she can't pass ANYBODY. Rule 7.4.G & Rule 8.1.A

"Batter" does beome a "Batter-Runner" on a clearly fair ball as in OP.

If the BR "passed" R3 who was tagging up (per OP), he/she has violated the rule ....if BR "stopped" on 1B AND R3 was still there, no violation.

[gumpire]

I will say that if the ball has cleared the fence and is therefore "dead ball" and a 4-base-award is given, if BR THEN passes R3, no violation. After "dead ball" - BR is safe and scores a run.

But until ball is clearly "dead" it is "live" and passing preceeding runner is an out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by gumpire

Remember, a foul ball is a strike on a "batter" and does not turn him/her into a BR. Since he/she's not a "runner", he/she can't pass ANYBODY. Rule 7.4.G & Rule 8.1.A

Okay, if you want to get picky, 5.5.A.Exception as previously noted clearly states the BATTER is credited with a run. So how are you going to call the player out AND count the run credited to him?

[gumpire]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Okay, if you want to get picky, 5.5.A.Exception as previously noted clearly states the BATTER is credited with a run. So how are you going to call the player out AND count the run credited to him?

Well IRISH, looks like we're just gonna go round-and-round....so I'm gonna stop now.

But, just remember, I'm right

Rule 10.1