identifying runners

[IRISHMAFIA]

They're just different. That's all. Just different. Different people do things differently.

If you're describing a softball play, use the softball designations for players. If you're describing a baseball play, use the baseball designations. Or, use the "other" designation and annoy people.

Couldn't agree more, but I didn't raise the issue or question it's logic

Originally Posted by Dakota

I'm just waiting for the baseball powers that be to endorse calls like DEAD BALL. That'll be some fun there!

I love that since MLB and I assume other baseball rule books use the term "alive" to describe the status of a ball in play no less than 10 times. OTOH, the term "ball is dead" is used on more than 50 occasions.

So, I really don't understand the resistance to "dead ball" since according their rules, it was alive.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Couldn't agree more, but I didn't raise the issue or question it's logic



I love that since MLB and I assume other baseball rule books use the term "alive" to describe the status of a ball in play no less than 10 times. OTOH, the term "ball is dead" is used on more than 50 occasions.

So, I really don't understand the resistance to "dead ball" since according their rules, it was alive.

Taking that a step further, I am pretty sure I remember the definition and rulings regarding "dead ball territory" in various levels of baseball. If the ball entering that territory doesn't make it a "dead ball", they logically should call that the "time territory".

Oops, logic. Never mind.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Taking that a step further, I am pretty sure I remember the definition and rulings regarding "dead ball territory" in various levels of baseball. If the ball entering that territory doesn't make it a "dead ball", they logically should call that the "time territory".

Oops, logic. Never mind.

Even better. From page 15 of the MLB Official Rules, Section 2.00 Definitions:

A DEAD BALL is a ball out of play because of a legally created temporary

suspension of play.

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

It is relatively simple. A player is listed as they enter the scenario. Your antiquated "baseball based" format, a player is locked into a label for a single action after which the label is changed. In the softball format, a runner needs to be labeled only once.

For convenience, all players of the team in the field are given a number in accordance to their fielding position. All
fielders are referred to as

F with their proper position number:

F1

pitcher

F2

catcher

F3

first baseman

F4

second baseman

F5

third baseman

F6

shortstop

F7

left fielder

F8

center fielder

F9

right fielder

F10

extra fielder

A runner is referred to as

R. If there is more than one runner on base:

R1

is the one farthest in advance

R2

the one next farthest in advance

R3

is the third runner to be on base
Each batter is referred to as B and if there are two runners on base and one out, the batter is B4.

The bases are referred to as:

1B

first base

2B

second base

3B

third base
The outfield is referred to as:

RF

right field

CF

center field

LF left field

Are you just f'in with me bc i said more than once that you were condescending??? I hope you dont talk to people like that in real life, or if you do, I hope you know how to handle yourself [physically]

Why the need to mention anything about position players of bases??

You are correct, the runners only need to be labeled once, but they have to be qualified every time. You have to specify which base each runner is on in the "softball format" which is what this whole thread was supposed to be about. Why is the system set up that way and not setup with R2 always means runner on 2nd.... Before I started the thread I tried to think of a logical explanation, but couldnt think of one, hence a thread was created to find an answer.

Let me put this another way, you dont call the home plate ump, U1 who is behind home plate, you call him PU. The P tells you everything you need to know about the umps position and needs no further clarification, why does the same theory not apply to runners?

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by rwest

Version 1

R1 on third; R2 on first; 2 outs. B3 hits a double between center and left field. R2 misses 2nd on the way to 3rd base. R1 scores. Does the run score if the defense properly appeals.

Version 2

Runners at first and third and 2 outs. B3 hits a double between center and left field. R1 misses 2nd on the way to 3rd base. R3 scores. Does the run score if the defense properly appeals.


Now, is version 1 really so much easier? I don't believe so. I understand both versions. It's not as some have suggested that we can't understand it. Just because someone criticizes the current system doesn't mean we can't use it and don't understand it. There's no logically reason for version 1. Mike, you say that in softball we have to designate them just one time, implying that version 2 requires us to change their designation. This is not true. In a given case play we don't have to change their designation as the play goes on. It is much more logical to have R1 mean the runner on 1st.

I dont know who you are but I can tell you are a wise poerson

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by Dakota

They're just different. That's all. Just different. Different people do things differently.

If you're describing a softball play, use the softball designations for players. If you're describing a baseball play, use the baseball designations. Or, use the "other" designation and annoy people.

Thats what I was trying to figure out. I dont know how baseball does it, all i know is what is logical in my mind, which is to designate R# where # is the base of the runner at TOP.

So there must have been a reason why softball decided to change the nomenclature, does anyone know what this reason is?

[BretMan]

For what it's worth...

This isn't entirely a "baseball versus softball" thing. For whatever reason, FED baseball uses the same "softball" designations in all of their rule books, case books and printed interpretations.

Why they do this- who knows? They are the only one of the "major" baseball rule sets that follow this numbering system. And those more familiar with OBR or NCAA never miss a chance to critisize them for it!

Personally, as someone that deals with both, it's not that hard to keep them separate. "When in Rome...", I guess. But I have always wondered how these two similar systems came to be split in this regard. I wonder if sometime many years ago they might have been the same, then one or the other switched thinking theirs was "the better way".

[NCASAUmp]

Potayto, potahto, who gives a sh1t? Is it a terrible system? Not at all.

Much ado about nothing, and I've got better things to worry about than this.

[steveshane67]

Runners at the corners, two outs. On a double by B5, R4 misses 2B as R3 scores. Does the run count if the missed base is appealed properly?

Where are you getting this example from? there are only 3 bases, so in the "easier" method, you could only have R1, R2, or R3, never R4 or R5 or R6....

The "logical" reason for the softball method is order we all learned as children, 1, then 2, then 3..... same order in which the runners advance around the bases.

I understand how softball labels its runners, to me, and apparently to other people, its superfluous to have a label on a runner, then have to qualify where that runner is. You dont think its overly complex to say R1 is on second base when you can just say R2?

In the other, R3 comes before R1 and you have B3 hitting a double with R3 scoring. Huh?

Maybe this is why you like the softball version, bc you cant comprehend that R3 means hes on third, which means hes ahead of R1, whos on first.

Its almost like having to say any rectangle with 4 sides of equal length, when you can just say any square.

With the softball method, you can continue with subsequent plays without changing the designation. If in the above scenario, the appeal was denied. You now have R4 and R5 on 3B & 2B with B6 in the box, 2 outs and one run scored.

With the other, it would be R3(nee R1) and R2(nee B3) on 3B & 2B with B3 batting. Wait a minute, didn't B3 just bat and is now standing on 2B?

maybe thats the answer to my question???? but ive never seen a description of a play with anything other than R1 R2 R3 used, ie ive never seen a sit with R4 or R5 or R6... used

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Potayto, potahto, who gives a sh1t? Is it a terrible system? Not at all.

Much ado about nothing, and I've got better things to worry about than this.

So no one knows the reason behind the use of the "softball" system????

after all, that was the question in my OP

Originally Posted by steveshane67

Just been reading some of the posts and was wondering where the identification of runners started/whats the reason behind the labeling system?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

So no one knows the reason behind the use of the "softball" system????

after all, that was the question in my OP

Why are traffic lights in that particular order? Why does a stop sign have 8 sides? Why is R1 on 3B? Someone probably knows why softball uses this system, but I doubt most people even care.

Does the system work?

[ronald]

pride and vanity can get in the way of knowing when a fight or a dialogue or conversation is worth something.

Sometimes, is this one of them, seems like it, we are forgetting the principle of cause I said so and I get to say so and that is that. Ain't got to explain nothing. Too many think that they can think better than the next guy and cause of it, the rest of the world should change and follow genius man or woman. people have lost their sense of when it is appropriate to object.

this is an old theme for me who has been here just 3 years. some of you ancient ones probably went here we go again.

I have no idea why it is like that but this is one instance that my wife would be proud of knowing not to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

I do wonder what anyone would do once they found out why it is done that way.

I imagine something along the lines of I see but..... See going now where on this and back to I am the boss and I said so. Know your place and know when it is time to debate an issue.

NCASA, as you can see, I have the long version of your short version: better things to do.

No more on this from me.

Ron

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Why are traffic lights in that particular order? Why does a stop sign have 8 sides? Why is R1 on 3B? Someone probably knows why softball uses this system, but I doubt most people even care.

Does the system work?

sure, it works, but it doesnt appear to be the best system. I could drive from boston to la, it would take 3 days, but id get there, or i could fly, and be there in 5 hours.

its not so much about caring, its more about not taking everything that your told as the end all be all. I could give a million examples about how questioning the way something was done is a good thing.

and fyi, the examples you gave are really that pertinent to the discussion, they would be if you could prove that traffic lights not in RYG order or a stop sign being a different shape would make them more effective in their usage. A better example would have been, why do elections not require voters to show ID to prevent voter fraud, and only require a verbal declaration and an address of who they are.

[ronald]

I whatever this post be closed. Anyone second it?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by ronald

I whatever this post be closed. Anyone second it?

Seconded.

The whole time I watched this thread, I had a line from "The Departed" running through my head...

Ellerby: "Cui bono?" Who benefits?
Colin: Cui gives a sh1t? It's got a freakin' bow on it.