identifying runners

[steveshane67]

Just been reading some of the posts and was wondering where the identification of runners started/whats the reason behind the labeling system?

IMO, its overly complicated to say R# is on base X when the # does not equal base X.

for example, runners on 1st and 3rd. the current system as used would say R1 on 3rd, R2 on first. Why wouldnt it be easier to say R3 and R1 where the # corresponds to what base they are actually on?

[wadeintothem]

the argument is old hat..

Softball does it that way to be different and thats the way it is in just about all prominent softball literature and training material.

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

the argument is old hat..

Softball does it that way to be different and thats the way it is in just about all prominent softball literature and training material.

so baseball does it the "easier" way, and someone sometime ago decided that softball would do it the "harder" way just to be different, and everyones followed suit since?

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

so baseball does it the "easier" way, and someone sometime ago decided that softball would do it the "harder" way just to be different, and everyones followed suit since?

thats the best I can figure.. you get used to it.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

so baseball does it the "easier" way, and someone sometime ago decided that softball would do it the "harder" way just to be different, and everyones followed suit since?

Frankly, I don't see why it's so difficult. R1 is always the lead runner, R2 is behind R1, R3 is behind R2. It goes with the batting order. What's so hard about that?

[ronald]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Frankly, I don't see why it's so difficult. R1 is always the lead runner, R2 is behind R1, R3 is behind R2. It goes with the batting order. What's so hard about that?

Nothing. It is so simple that some think it is hard, I guess

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Frankly, I don't see why it's so difficult. R1 is always the lead runner, R2 is behind R1, R3 is behind R2. It goes with the batting order. What's so hard about that?

its not that its difficult, its just a "flawed" system IMO. Like I said earlier, when you have to specify what bases R1 R2 are on its just unnecessary (obv you dont need to specify R3 bc he can only be on 1st), its almost like having to say the leadoff batter batting first.

When you can use a system like R1 always corresponds to a runner on 1st, R2 -> 2nd, R3 -> 3rd, thus when you have a situation like 1st and 3rd, currently you have to say R1 is on 3rd, R2 is on 1st, which is a whole lot more wordy than saying R3, R1.

[IRISHMAFIA]

It is relatively simple. A player is listed as they enter the scenario. Your antiquated "baseball based" format, a player is locked into a label for a single action after which the label is changed. In the softball format, a runner needs to be labeled only once.

For convenience, all players of the team in the field are given a number in accordance to their fielding position. All
fielders are referred to as

F with their proper position number:

F1

pitcher

F2

catcher

F3

first baseman

F4

second baseman

F5

third baseman

F6

shortstop

F7

left fielder

F8

center fielder

F9

right fielder

F10

extra fielder

A runner is referred to as

R. If there is more than one runner on base:

R1

is the one farthest in advance

R2

the one next farthest in advance

R3

is the third runner to be on base
Each batter is referred to as B and if there are two runners on base and one out, the batter is B4.

The bases are referred to as:

1B

first base

2B

second base

3B

third base
The outfield is referred to as:

RF

right field

CF

center field

LF left field

[rwest]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

It is relatively simple. A player is listed as they enter the scenario. Your antiquated "baseball based" format, a player is locked into a label for a single action after which the label is changed. In the softball format, a runner needs to be labeled only once.

For convenience, all players of the team in the field are given a number in accordance to their fielding position. All
fielders are referred to as

F with their proper position number:

F1

pitcher

F2

catcher

F3

first baseman

F4

second baseman

F5

third baseman

F6

shortstop

F7

left fielder

F8

center fielder

F9

right fielder

F10

extra fielder

A runner is referred to as

R. If there is more than one runner on base:

R1

is the one farthest in advance

R2

the one next farthest in advance

R3

is the third runner to be on base
Each batter is referred to as B and if there are two runners on base and one out, the batter is B4.

The bases are referred to as:

1B

first base

2B

second base

3B

third base
The outfield is referred to as:

RF

right field

CF

center field

LF left field

Version 1

R1 on third; R2 on first; 2 outs. B3 hits a double between center and left field. R2 misses 2nd on the way to 3rd base. R1 scores. Does the run score if the defense properly appeals.

Version 2

Runners at first and third and 2 outs. B3 hits a double between center and left field. R1 misses 2nd on the way to 3rd base. R3 scores. Does the run score if the defense properly appeals.


Now, is version 1 really so much easier? I don't believe so. I understand both versions. It's not as some have suggested that we can't understand it. Just because someone criticizes the current system doesn't mean we can't use it and don't understand it. There's no logically reason for version 1. Mike, you say that in softball we have to designate them just one time, implying that version 2 requires us to change their designation. This is not true. In a given case play we don't have to change their designation as the play goes on. It is much more logical to have R1 mean the runner on 1st.

[IRISHMAFIA]

How is it that I knew my buddy from GA would jump on this one?

Originally Posted by rwest

Version 1

R1 on third; R2 on first; 2 outs. B3 hits a double between center and left field. R2 misses 2nd on the way to 3rd base. R1 scores. Does the run score if the defense properly appeals.

Version 2

Runners at first and third and 2 outs. B3 hits a double between center and left field. R1 misses 2nd on the way to 3rd base. R3 scores. Does the run score if the defense properly appeals.


Now, is version 1 really so much easier? I don't believe so. I understand both versions. It's not as some have suggested that we can't understand it. Just because someone criticizes the current system doesn't mean we can't use it and don't understand it. There's no logically reason for version 1. Mike, you say that in softball we have to designate them just one time, implying that version 2 requires us to change their designation. This is not true. In a given case play we don't have to change their designation as the play goes on. It is much more logical to have R1 mean the runner on 1st.

Or:

Runners at the corners, two outs. On a double by B5, R4 misses 2B as R3 scores. Does the run count if the missed base is appealed properly?

The "logical" reason for the softball method is order we all learned as children, 1, then 2, then 3..... same order in which the runners advance around the bases.

In the other, R3 comes before R1 and you have B3 hitting a double with R3 scoring. Huh?

With the softball method, you can continue with subsequent plays without changing the designation. If in the above scenario, the appeal was denied. You now have R4 and R5 on 3B & 2B with B6 in the box, 2 outs and one run scored.

With the other, it would be R3(nee R1) and R2(nee B3) on 3B & 2B with B3 batting. Wait a minute, didn't B3 just bat and is now standing on 2B?

[Dakota]

They're just different. That's all. Just different. Different people do things differently.

If you're describing a softball play, use the softball designations for players. If you're describing a baseball play, use the baseball designations. Or, use the "other" designation and annoy people.

[greymule]

The OBR rule book uses my favorite system of designation: "Abel on 3B, Baker on 2B, Charles on 1B, Daniels hits a drive to right center . . ."

or

"Edwards is due to bat but French bats instead and singles."

However, this system is now abandoned, as it requires facility with the alphabet.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

How is it that I knew my buddy from GA would jump on this one?

Because you know me so well?

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

With the softball method, you can continue with subsequent plays without changing the designation. If in the above scenario, the appeal was denied. You now have R4 and R5 on 3B & 2B with B6 in the box, 2 outs and one run scored.

With the other, it would be R3(nee R1) and R2(nee B3) on 3B & 2B with B3 batting. Wait a minute, didn't B3 just bat and is now standing on 2B?

True as far as continuing with subsequent plays. But that is so rarely done. I can't even think of a thread where this method was used, except in your above example! Most of our posts and most of the case plays are individual plays. I can't even think of a series of case plays that this method was used.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Dakota

They're just different. That's all. Just different. Different people do things differently.

If you're describing a softball play, use the softball designations for players. If you're describing a baseball play, use the baseball designations. Or, use the "other" designation and annoy people.

I do use the softball designations. I'm a team player. I do what I'm trained to do even if I disagree with the mechanics. I enforce the rules even the ones I'd like to see changed. Doesn't mean we can't disagree with how things are done. I do believe that the various softball associations sometimes do things differently just to be different from baseball. Some of the mechanic differences are logically since the game is different on certain levels. Others, I believe, are done just to be different. Which is fine with me. I don't lose sleep over it. I'm just saying!

[Dakota]

I'm just waiting for the baseball powers that be to endorse calls like DEAD BALL. That'll be some fun there!