skull session

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by reccer

Results of static test in the kitchen, not at the ballpark:

16 year old 5' 2" female subject was positioned 20 inches from home plate. Her grip was not choked up. Using her regular swing with no stride ("sit and spin") careful NCASA-- this is my daughter her bat does not reach the far edge of the plate, let alone your strike zone edge. Further, even if she casts her arms straight out, the bat does not reach 10 inches beyond the plate.

Gonna be awhile before I can field test this. She is in one of those 16 year old moods.

I wonder how tall was the subject in the test. If you have a link to that study I would love to read it.

So, your daughter has no arms? If you place the bat at her toes, the end of it would be 4" from the outside edge of the plate. So, for the bat to not reach the outer edge of the plate, your daughter's arms must be less than 4" long. Hell, I'd be moody, too.

[reccer]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

So, your daughter has no arms? If you place the bat at her toes, the end of it would be 4" from the outside edge of the plate. So, for the bat to not reach the outer edge of the plate, your daughter's arms must be less than 4" long. Hell, I'd be moody, too.

I know its the wrong forum to be having an in depth hitting discussion, but, briefly, slam that back elbow down in to the slot and see where your hands are relative to your toes. I bet they are a whole lot closer than you thought they were. Granted, there has to be a slow down of hip rotation and some casting to reach that outside pitch, but DD's swing would be beyond absurd using Mike's 20 inches from one side of the plate to 10 inches on the other.

Do some google searches for "hitting casting problems" or go to my favorite batspeed.com for in depth hitting discussions.

I'll see about the youtube. Might be a fun summer project.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by reccer

I know its the wrong forum to be having an in depth hitting discussion, but, briefly, slam that back elbow down in to the slot and see where your hands are relative to your toes. I bet they are a whole lot closer than you thought they were. Granted, there has to be a slow down of hip rotation and some casting to reach that outside pitch, but DD's swing would be beyond absurd using Mike's 20 inches from one side of the plate to 10 inches on the other.

Do some google searches for "hitting casting problems" or go to my favorite batspeed.com for in depth hitting discussions.

I'll see about the youtube. Might be a fun summer project.

Yes, but in your studies and calculations, have you taken into account the fact that outs are good and hits are bad and time consuming?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by reccer

I know its the wrong forum to be having an in depth hitting discussion, but, briefly, slam that back elbow down in to the slot and see where your hands are relative to your toes. I bet they are a whole lot closer than you thought they were. Granted, there has to be a slow down of hip rotation and some casting to reach that outside pitch, but DD's swing would be beyond absurd using Mike's 20 inches from one side of the plate to 10 inches on the other.

Do some google searches for "hitting casting problems" or go to my favorite batspeed.com for in depth hitting discussions.

I'll see about the youtube. Might be a fun summer project.

You do realize that hitting an outside pitch requires a full extension of the arms? Not talking about a batting stance.

When you played SP, did you ever notice that when some hitters were fooled on a short pitch, they would step into their swing and hit a pitch that was going to hit in front of the plate for a solid line drive, often up the middle? That full extension is what put the power behind what many expect to be a weak hit.

But if your DD is going to stick with a tight, compact swing, you are partially correct. The ball is hitable, just not by your DD.

[Welpe]

Outside pitch? A good hitter will put it into the opposite field. A not so good hitter...well this is a competitive sport, is it not?

[reccer]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You do realize that hitting an outside pitch requires a full extension of the arms?

I do realize it if the outside pitch is 6 inches off the plate.

Until DD gets in a better mood, (or I buy her the car I promised if she led the city in something (she was second in SB's), these videos will have to do.

This video is a big Mike sized guy. Notice his back arm is not fully extended at point of contact. Wonder what he would say if I moved his T 6 inches further out?

YouTube - Hitting Outside Pitch #2

If you don't like scum of the earth baseball guys, here is one of my favorites (and your favorite announcer Listen for the words "don't cast out". Freeze the frame at point of contact. Look at the location of the back elbow.

YouTube - Jessica Mendoza Softball Training - HIT: Outside Pitch : Softball.com

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by reccer

I do realize it if the outside pitch is 6 inches off the plate.

Until DD gets in a better mood, (or I buy her the car I promised if she led the city in something (she was second in SB's), these videos will have to do.

This video is a big Mike sized guy. Notice his back arm is not fully extended at point of contact. Wonder what he would say if I moved his T 6 inches further out?

YouTube - Hitting Outside Pitch #2

Couldn't care less about baseball.

YouTube - Jessica Mendoza Softball Training - HIT: Outside Pitch : Softball.com

JM is talking about two different things. She refers to the outside pitch, but her demonstration and mechanics concern opposite field hitting, not necessarily being able to hit the pitch off the plate. Of course, players terminology usually reflects their training and outside influences which is probably why there is the continuing reference to "mound" and "rubber" on a softball field.

You need to remember, stepping into the pitch is relatively new to the women's/girl's game. Fifteen-twenty years ago, many of the girls playing the game had a swing which more resembled a batter standing erect and dragging the bat around with hip rotation. Usually, it was only at the higher levels of play that you saw players attack the ball. Once the NCAA really developed a good softball program along with the Olympics did more people take the women's game in a more serious manner and it has been soaring since then. And with that advancement came the advanced mechanics which, IMO, is a good thing.

However, you want to discuss ideal mechanics of a text-book swing. My discussion is purely whether the pitch is hitable. If the batter has two strikes and knows the the pitcher is getting the outside corner and maybe a bit more, are you going to just concede the strike, or teach your batter how to hit the damn thing?

Look at JM's feet. She is standing closer to the plate which is okay. But I would be willing to bet that if she had to hit a pitch off the plate, she wouldn't have a problem.

[wadeintothem]

Good lord man, have you never heard of the 3-0 courtesy strike?

What NUS did you go too!!?!!?!

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Good lord man, have you never heard of the 3-0 courtesy strike?

What NUS did you go too!!?!!?!

Let's see... "Courtesy runner?" Nope...

"Courtesy Internet?" Nope...

"Courtesy flush?" I know what that is, but no...

Nope, nothing about the courtesy strike in the rule book.

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Good lord man, have you never heard of the 3-0 courtesy strike?

Oh, so that's what that strike is called in slow pitch when the pitcher finally gets it across the plate and the batter is nice enough not to swat the dang thing out of the park. I always wondered what that was called.

[reccer]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You need to remember, stepping into the pitch is relatively new to the women's/girl's game.

... knows the the pitcher is getting the outside corner and maybe a bit more, are you going to just concede the strike, or teach your batter how to hit the damn thing?

I concede that stepping into the pitch is necessary when its off the plate, and I have some homework to do on this concept.

The Blue team's pitcher in the video is going to U of Houston. (Red team's is going to U of Texas) The first game of the series Blue team's pitcher lived on that stripe in the opposite batters box and Blue gave it to her. All 4 of our lefties were powerless to do anything about it except for a futile last minute lunge. Completely shut us down because we did not know how to handle it.

Game 2 was a different story for DD with a new PU. He was not giving that off the plate pitch as a strike and DD had two solid slap hits.

Something I haven't pointed out yet that you probably have surmised is that DD is a 100% slapper. My sense is that rather than step towards the pitcher she will need to step more towards the plate with her crossover step.

If you have a suggestion on this crossover step, please let me know. Specifically, as long as she doesn't step on or in front of the plate, will Blues have a problem? More specifically, say on the left crossover step the toes land in the 6" area between the plate and the stripe with the heel landing on the stripe. Is she still in the box?

I am enjoying the discussion. Thank you.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by reccer

...More specifically, say on the left crossover step the toes land in the 6" area between the plate and the stripe with the heel landing on the stripe. Is she still in the box?...

Yes. To be out of the box, her entire foot needs to be out of the box and on the ground at the time of contact.

What many slappers do is time the contact with the ball so the foot has not touched down yet (supposedly). Word to the coach: the foot out of the box is difficult for the umpire to see, so if the timing is close, it is unlikely to ever be called.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by reccer

I concede that stepping into the pitch is necessary when its off the plate, and I have some homework to do on this concept.

The Blue team's pitcher in the video is going to U of Houston. (Red team's is going to U of Texas) The first game of the series Blue team's pitcher lived on that stripe in the opposite batters box and Blue gave it to her. All 4 of our lefties were powerless to do anything about it except for a futile last minute lunge. Completely shut us down because we did not know how to handle it.

Game 2 was a different story for DD with a new PU. He was not giving that off the plate pitch as a strike and DD had two solid slap hits.

Something I haven't pointed out yet that you probably have surmised is that DD is a 100% slapper. My sense is that rather than step towards the pitcher she will need to step more towards the plate with her crossover step.

If you have a suggestion on this crossover step, please let me know. Specifically, as long as she doesn't step on or in front of the plate, will Blues have a problem? More specifically, say on the left crossover step the toes land in the 6" area between the plate and the stripe with the heel landing on the stripe. Is she still in the box?

I am enjoying the discussion. Thank you.

Yes, she is in the box.

However, as previously noted, I'm just stating the pitch is hitable. As a slapper, that obviously isn't your DDs forte, but you cannot change everything based on different batter's manner.

If your DD isn't interested, find a player who likes to lay into the ball and have her swing at a teed-ball on the opposite BB line just above waist height. Then adjust to chest and knee high between the plate and the line. See which ball she hits more solidly. Obviously she will need to be up on the plate in the BB.

[marvin]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You need to remember, stepping into the pitch is relatively new to the women's/girl's game. Fifteen-twenty years ago, many of the girls playing the game had a swing which more resembled a batter standing erect and dragging the bat around with hip rotation. Usually, it was only at the higher levels of play that you saw players attack the ball. Once the NCAA really developed a good softball program along with the Olympics did more people take the women's game in a more serious manner and it has been soaring since then.

There were national championships for women's college softball prior to the NCAA deciding it was OK for women to play sports? The high school game is over 35 years old in some states? The NCAA didn't develop a "good softball program" it was already there. Don't give the NCAA credit for popularizing or improving any women's sport when they excluded women athletes for years.

In 1966, my wife played in a local softball league that had over 400 girls in it.

The evolution of women's college sports

Association for Intercollegiate Athletics for Women at Wikipedia

AIAW Champions

The Brakettes have been in existence for over 60 years.

There was a pro softball league in 1976.

Some Softball History scroll down for the women's listings.

My point is that the women's/girl's fastpitch game is older and has a much broader history than you can see on ESPN during the NCAA championships. Softball players have been "stepping into the pitchl" both literally and figuratively for much longer than most people are aware of and with a whole lot more athletic ability and talent than they receive credit for. The people who were involved in the women's/girls game 40 (or more) years ago were pretty serious about the game.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by marvin

There were national championships for women's college softball prior to the NCAA deciding it was OK for women to play sports? The high school game is over 35 years old in some states? The NCAA didn't develop a "good softball program" it was already there. Don't give the NCAA credit for popularizing or improving any women's sport when they excluded women athletes for years.



My point is that the women's/girl's fastpitch game is older and has a much broader history than you can see on ESPN during the NCAA championships. Softball players have been "stepping into the pitchl" both literally and figuratively for much longer than most people are aware of and with a whole lot more athletic ability and talent than they receive credit for. The people who were involved in the women's/girls game 40 (or more) years ago were pretty serious about the game.

I wasn't giving the NCAA credit for developing the game, just their part of it. The coaches that were involved in the game were great and never really given the credit they were due. The kicker is that until people were sucked into the almighty scholarship scam, much of the coaching was provided by unwilling PhysEd teachers, baseball coaches or the father of a player. At the HS level, the baseball folk considered softball not much more than afterschool babysitting for the girls. Many still believed a ball field was no place for a female.

In the mid-60's around here, high schools declared softball as a very unladylike game and removed it from the extracurricular/sports calendar. They replaced it with lacrosse!!! Yeah, some real intelligent people there.

Marvin, if you noticed this sentence "Usually, it was only at the higher levels of play that you saw players attack the ball", it was my way of acknowledging the teams and players of which you speak. Maybe I wasn't clear enough to that point. Those to whom I was trying to refer were the HS players and the few local leagues out there.

I am familiar with softball in the past and those women deserve a lot of credit, but unfortunately, it usually only comes from inside the softball community.