Umpire Error

[rottiron01]

First I would like to thank all of you who tried to answer my post.
I am sorry I did no clarify the situation enough. I am going to give it one more try.

Slow Pitch Softball
Home plate umpire calls the batter out for being out of the batter box. The batter did step up but there was no box being used. The only lines on the field were the foul lines. There was a runner on first and second. The umpires met and ruled that although the batter did step up there were no lines so they could not determine if the batter would have stepped all the way out of the box when contact with the ball was made. The umpires ruled that: Batter gets first base, the runner on first gets third, and the runner from second scored. They used their judgment at the time the ball was picked up by the outfielder. (The outfielders did not hear the batter out call so they made a normal play on the ball.) The offensive team protests the game because they felt the umpire did not know the rule. The offensive team enden up losing by one run. Is this misinterpretation of a rule or not because they changed their call? Can you call "out of the box" if there is no box being utilized?


Thanks for any help!

This is a prison league and these guys complain about every call. Sometimes even when it is in their favor.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Thanks for the clarification

Originally Posted by rottiron01

Home plate umpire calls the batter out for being out of the batter box. The batter did step up but there was no box being used. The only lines on the field were the foul lines. There was a runner on first and second. The umpires met and ruled that although the batter did step up there were no lines so they could not determine if the batter would have stepped all the way out of the box when contact with the ball was made.

As you have read, the lack of lines do not negate the rules. Many fields around the country get played with lines, batter's box or otherwise. You still make the call, but I suggest umpires be somewhat liberal, so when the call is made, there is no doubt.

This is where the umpire's screwed up. This is a rule which is not to be called unless it was actually seen by the umpire. IOW, it is a given that the umpire saw this violation or the call would never have been made.

The umpires ruled that: Batter gets first base, the runner on first gets third, and the runner from second scored. They used their judgment at the time the ball was picked up by the outfielder. (The outfielders did not hear the batter out call so they made a normal play on the ball.) The offensive team protests the game because they felt the umpire did not know the rule. The offensive team enden up losing by one run. Is this misinterpretation of a rule or not because they changed their call? Can you call "out of the box" if there is no box being utilized?

Thanks for any help!

This is a prison league and these guys complain about every call. Sometimes even when it is in their favor.

Still confused about a protest of a call which favored the team protesting. Of course, they were somewhat right, but still . . . Games there must be a lot of fun.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by rottiron01

First I would like to thank all of you who tried to answer my post.
I am sorry I did no clarify the situation enough. I am going to give it one more try.

No problem. The other thread was going down a bad rabbit hole, so it's been closed. Let's refrain from turning this into another troll war.

Originally Posted by rottiron01

Slow Pitch Softball
Home plate umpire calls the batter out for being out of the batter box. The batter did step up but there was no box being used. The only lines on the field were the foul lines.

So far, I'm with you. As mentioned before, just because the lines are not laid out, it does not mean that there is no batter's box. If the lines are not present, it's 100% umpire's judgment. Well, even if there ARE lines, it's still umpire's judgment, but it becomes more of a discretionary call.

Originally Posted by rottiron01

There was a runner on first and second. The umpires met and ruled that although the batter did step up there were no lines so they could not determine if the batter would have stepped all the way out of the box when contact with the ball was made.

Again, still with you so far. However, it's still plate umpire's judgment as to whether or not the batter's entire foot was out of where the batter's box would have been when contact was made with the ball.

Originally Posted by rottiron01

The umpires ruled that: Batter gets first base, the runner on first gets third, and the runner from second scored. They used their judgment at the time the ball was picked up by the outfielder. (The outfielders did not hear the batter out call so they made a normal play on the ball.) The offensive team protests the game because they felt the umpire did not know the rule. The offensive team enden up losing by one run. Is this misinterpretation of a rule or not because they changed their call? Can you call "out of the box" if there is no box being utilized?

It depends on why they changed the call. If their reason was "because there is no box, you can't ever call a batter out for stepping out of the box," then they were misinterpreting the rule. If their reason was that the plate umpire simply did not understand that the box was still there, AND the plate umpire was convinced that if the box HAD been there, the batter would have been within or touching the lines with both feet, then they rectified the situation.

To quote ASA for you:

ASA 10-3-C: The plate umpire may rectify any situation in which the reversal of an umpire’s decision or a delayed call by an umpire places a batter-runner, a runner or the defensive team in jeopardy.

In this case, if the plate umpire truly felt that he screwed up, he can place the runners where he believes they would have ended up had the screwup not occurred. Generally-speaking, the customary way of remedying this is by awarding the batter 1B, and advancing each runner one base if they are forced to advance. However, there's nothing that says that an umpire can't award more than one base.

However, the troubling issue that I think a lot of us are finding in this post is that the plate umpire reversed his call after meeting with the rest of the umpires. Did the plate umpire seek out the advice of the other umpires? Or did the other umpires go in and speak with him? If the latter is the case, then there's also another rule...

ASA 10-3-B: Under no circumstances will any umpire seek to reverse a decision made by an associate, nor will any umpire criticize or interfere with the duties of their associate(s) unless asked to do so.

I think this is where the rest of this board is getting confused. The impression we're getting is that his partners may have interjected their opinions, which is improper. However, it's up to the umpire who is responsible for the call (in this case, the plate umpire) to make the final call.

These duties and responsibilities are very clearly laid out in the rule book. However, the failure to adhere to Rule 10 is not grounds for protest. They are simply guidelines. The only grounds for protest that the team has is IF the plate umpire ruled that you can't EVER be called out for making contact with the ball while out of the batter's box if there is no batter's box.

Originally Posted by rottiron01

Thanks for any help!

Gladly!

Originally Posted by rottiron01

This is a prison league and these guys complain about every call. Sometimes even when it is in their favor.

Why do I not have trouble believing this...

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

As you have read, the lack of lines do not negate the rules. Many fields around the country get played with lines, batter's box or otherwise. You still make the call, but I suggest umpires be somewhat liberal, so when the call is made, there is no doubt.

This is where the umpire's screwed up. This is a rule which is not to be called unless it was actually seen by the umpire. IOW, it is a given that the umpire saw this violation or the call would never have been made.

I agree. If the lines are wiped out or were never there to begin with, the umpire shouldn't split hairs. I only call it if it's blatantly obvious, usually in the form of the entire foot being in front of the plate.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Still confused about a protest of a call which favored the team protesting. Of course, they were somewhat right, but still . . . Games there must be a lot of fun.

I think the whole "they'll complain about every call" comment says it all! Tell me, rottiron01, are there armed guards atop the foul poles?

I'm actually kinda curious to hear more about this league. How, exactly, are you involved, if I might ask?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by rottiron01

...but there was no box being used lines marked....

I assume that is what you meant. As several have said, the lack of lines does not mean there is no batter's box. It only means umpire must judge the boundaries of the box.

Originally Posted by rottiron01

...The umpires met and ruled that although the batter did step up there were no lines so they could not determine if the batter would have stepped all the way out of the box when contact with the ball was made....

This is unusual for this particular call, but, in general, the calling umpire can ask his partner for additional information, and based on that, reverse his call.

Originally Posted by rottiron01

...The umpires ruled that: Batter gets first base, the runner on first gets third, and the runner from second scored. They used their judgment at the time the ball was picked up by the outfielder. (The outfielders did not hear the batter out call so they made a normal play on the ball.)

Sounds like they applied ASA rule 10-3-C, which is proper when a call is reversed.

Originally Posted by rottiron01

...The offensive team protests the game because they felt the umpire did not know the rule. The offensive team enden up losing by one run. Is this misinterpretation of a rule or not because they changed their call?...

When did the offensive team lodge their protest? Sounds like they protested only because they lost the game. If they waited until then to protest the game based on an earlier play, the protest is improper and should not be allowed.

And, if the "misinterpretation" being protested is changing the call, as I said above, this is allowed and provided for in the rules, so the protest should not be upheld on this basis.

Originally Posted by rottiron01

... Can you call "out of the box" if there is no box being utilized drawn?

Yes.

[rottiron01]

I work in the Recreation Department of the institution and I run the softball league. I study the ASA rules but sometimes need a little direction.


Thank you for all of your help!

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by rottiron01

I work in the Recreation Department of the institution and I run the softball league. I study the ASA rules but sometimes need a little direction.


Thank you for all of your help!

Don't leave yet! I was hoping to hear more about this league...

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Don't leave yet! I was hoping to hear more about this league...

Maybe Rott Tweets?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

Maybe Rott Tweets?

Don't have his Twitter ID to look him up.

[rottiron01]

If there is anything you would like to know about the league just ask or email [email protected].

Again thanks for all of your help. I am sure I will need more as the league rolls along.

By the way there are no guard towers just trucks with weapons.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by rottiron01

If there is anything you would like to know about the league just ask or email [email protected].

Again thanks for all of your help. I am sure I will need more as the league rolls along.

By the way there are no guard towers just trucks with weapons.

BUT -
Do you have fences?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Steve M

BUT -
Do you have fences?

If there is anything you would like to know about the league ... email [email protected].

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Steve M

BUT -
Do you have fences?

The most classic of quotes.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Steve M

BUT -
Do you have fences?

Yeah and watch out for the razor wire if you are going to try and bring back a HR ball. It might cost you a little more than a four base award if you don't catch it!

[rottiron01]

There is actually an outfield fence. The perimeter fence is about 60 feet behind that one.