Rules Question

[reccer]

It is a legitimate sitch. Mr Jones, you are the batter, and from your previous descriptions of your physique, your home to first time is north of 4 seconds. Watley is on second. From the time BU sees the ball beat the foot and winds up for his out sell, a minimum of 1 1/2 seconds go by.

By this time Watley has made it to within 2 feet of home.

If BU initial ruling is safe, the run scores.

But BU rules out, and later reverses himself with the pulled foot info from PU.

So here is my question, is the run counting a judgment on the part of PU, i.e. he determines there was no way defense would have gotten the ball home in time, even with an original safe call.

Or, the fact that Watley hadn't crossed the plate by the time the batter/runner's foot touches first means by rule she must go back?

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by reccer

It is a legitimate sitch. Mr Jones, you are the batter, and from your previous descriptions of your physique, your home to first time is north of 4 seconds. Watley is on second. From the time BU sees the ball beat the foot and winds up for his out sell, a minimum of 1 1/2 seconds go by.

By this time Watley has made it to within 2 feet of home.

If BU initial ruling is safe, the run scores.

But BU rules out, and later reverses himself with the pulled foot info from PU.

So here is my question, is the run counting a judgment on the part of PU, i.e. he determines there was no way defense would have gotten the ball home in time, even with an original safe call.

Or, the fact that Watley hadn't crossed the plate by the time the batter/runner's foot touches first means by rule she must go back?

by what rule? "must she go back" not in my rulebook it doesn't. but then again I never read the damn things anyways. I just let the coaches tell me what the rules are.
I use my judgment all the time tho. (no wonder I stay in trouble)

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by reccer

It is a legitimate sitch. Mr Jones, you are the batter, and from your previous descriptions of your physique, your home to first time is north of 4 seconds. Watley is on second. From the time BU sees the ball beat the foot and winds up for his out sell, a minimum of 1 1/2 seconds go by.

By this time Watley has made it to within 2 feet of home.

If BU initial ruling is safe, the run scores.

But BU rules out, and later reverses himself with the pulled foot info from PU.

So here is my question, is the run counting a judgment on the part of PU, i.e. he determines there was no way defense would have gotten the ball home in time, even with an original safe call.

Or, the fact that Watley hadn't crossed the plate by the time the batter/runner's foot touches first means by rule she must go back?

Again, this is where ASA 10-3-C comes into play...

The plate umpire may rectify any situation in which the reversal of an umpire’s decision or a delayed call by an umpire places a batter-runner, a runner or the defensive team in jeopardy. This correction is not possible after one pitch legal or illegal or after the pitcher and all infielders have clearly vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory on their way to the bench or dugout area, or after the last play of the game, the umpires have left the field of play.

In this case, the BU's call was the one that was reversed. As a result, this placed R2 in jeopardy, as she was still running the bases at the time of the "third out." That being the case, it's completely left up to the judgment of the PU to decide where the runners should be placed.

There were some who believed that if a runner was "more than halfway" to the next base, they should get that base. However, that's no longer the case. In this sitch, in my judgment, if the defense had no chance in hell in making a play on R2 going home, I'm awarding home. On the other hand, if, in my judgment as the PU, there probably could have been a play, the safe call would be to put R2 on 3B.

[SRW]

After the 3rd out is made (in error or not), is the ball not dead?

[Andy]

How about this...what would have (likely) happened if the "right" call was made in the first place?

The right call being that F3 did not have contact with the base before the runner touched first.

Run scores, two outs, runners on first and either second or third, next batter, please.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Andy

How about this...what would have (likely) happened if the "right" call was made in the first place?

The right call being that F3 did not have contact with the base before the runner touched first.

Run scores, two outs, runners on first and either second or third, next batter, please.

How about this? BU quickly sells an off the bag call. F3 spins and throws to F2. F2 tags the runner coming home. So how about as PU you just announce the inning is over anyway
________
The Peak Towers Condominium

[Andy]

Originally Posted by youngump

How about this? BU quickly sells an off the bag call. F3 spins and throws to F2. F2 tags the runner coming home. So how about as PU you just announce the inning is over anyway

I'm not sure if you're just giving me grief, or you are comletely disagreeing with my position.

I'm taking the OP at face value...the runner was two steps from home.

As I picture this play, there is no way in hell that a throw from F3 is going to get to F2 in time to get an out. This play and answer to the OP seems very simple to me with the information provided taken at face value.

[Dakota]

Well, you could also assume that the runner was going to step over the plate and be in jeopardy of being out on appeal!

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Andy

I'm not sure if you're just giving me grief, or you are comletely disagreeing with my position.

Mostly I'm not quite taking the OP at face value and as a result being flippant; that's the reason for all the emoticons. In general, with a 1-2-3 double play, the runner from 2nd does not have a shot at getting home.
________
Laguna Bay Condo Prathumnak

[IRISHMAFIA]

Another twist before giving the defense the entire bag of "jeopardy" widgets.

Who is to say the BU's original call did not cause the runner to slow assuming the inning was over and any further advance futile?

FTR, I don't buy the point that the runner covered that much territory in the time noted, but the OP is all with which we have to work.

FWIW, I am one of the "halfway" advocates when the ball is declared dead for reasons not of the offense's making.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Andy

How about this...what would have (likely) happened if the "right" call was made in the first place?

The right call being that F3 did not have contact with the base before the runner touched first.

Run scores, two outs, runners on first and either second or third, next batter, please.

Thank you, thank you, thank you !

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by SRW

After the 3rd out is made (in error or not), is the ball not dead?

I know of an 18 Gold national Champion (Worth Firecrackers) that ALWAYS made the next play, even with two outs, so that the umpire judgment in the event of a changed call like this could never advance a runner that didn't.

That said, this can't be judged like an interference call that kills everything even one inch from the next base. If a call is reversed, 10.3-C makes clear the plate umpire is intended to use the best possible judgment to negate (rectify) the jeopardy. If the run would have absolutely scored, in the best judgment of the umpire, home should be awarded. If it is unclear what the result at home would be, put her back on third. No, Youngump (yes, I know you were being facetious, but some reader may think you were serious), you cannot assume an out.